Making supersport...supersport

[fourandsix]

Is this more in the Amatuer or expert classes? I could build a supersport legal f2 and put a guy like denning on it and he could easily do probably high 12s or low 13 at blackhawk on it. It would make around 97 to 100hp on it. How many amatuers do those times now. We can go a little newer and put him on a say 2000 ZX6r , it would have about 110hp and he could probably do high 11s to low 12s. How many experts can do those times.
Get over who is cheating and who is not , it's the rider pure and simple. If your an amatuer who cares , your learning to ride and move up to expert. As an expert your goal is to get into the 10's on a 600. Worry more about your riding , setup  you will then reach those goals. Jim

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Aye.
I'm with Jim on this one.
I can attest to that. I did an 11.7 on a 2000 ZX6R at Blackhawk in 2003.
Back in 1998 I ran a 13 something on an F3. All were supersport legal bikes.
My F3 had 102 HP and the ZX6R had 108 HP.

It's all the rider. I always say work on your riding skills first cause if you can't even take the proper line around the track what good does it do to have an Ohlins shock or full kit suspension.
What good does it do to have a ton of power if you don't have the proper suspension to put it on the ground?
Oh that ZX6R I did that time on had a stock shock on it that was original! :o
I have been running stock forks on my race bikes for the last few years too. I tried the Ohlins Kit Internal and did the same exact lap times on both bikes stock or kit.
I will admit it felt a slight bit better over the bumps but it wasn't enough for me to make a big difference.
So it doesn't really matter if someone cheats or not to me. It won't do anything for you but hurt your ego when you get beat and your wallet!
Don't get me wrong, it is good to have your bike setup properly and have the motor tuned to run good since it will last longer and give that extra little bit of advantage if you need it and the competition is tough. But if you need to work on your skills yet do that first cause that is free.
Racing is about the whole package. Bike (which consist of hundreds of variables) rider (which have just as many), team players, mechanic (if you have one). Try to balance all those to make the best package.
When you get it right things will really come together.

[G 97]

 (You'd be SHOCKED if you knew who these thoroughly respectable ambassadors of racing were!)  !

It goes way deeper than that.  I think alot of people would be surprised.  In the end why would you want to get in a wizzing contex=st with anohther racer who basicaly has your life at his hands.

I remember one time when a protest was filed against a legit cheater only to have the legit cheater file a retalitory protest out of spite.  CCS did nothing in the mannor to help the rule abiding racer out.  In short CCS at times leaves little to be desired when it comes to administrative items such as protest.   

[Super Dave]

Garth, I don't know if we're talking about the same person, but for it to be done, the retalitory protest was filed by another rider.  And the tech inspector and the referee both refused the protest based on their ability to do so in the rule book per retalitory protests.  However, it was the race director that upheld the protest.

Whiners are protesters...  I guess I don't agree.  File the protest if you have the money.  Predates a lot of you, but Polen was protested early in the GSXR Cup Series.  The fast racers that were getting beat by him found out that his motors were very, very tired.  You've got to legitamize your thoughts or realize your fears.  Either way, protesting isn'w whining.  Not protesting is.

[mike_gantz]

I bet jim and jason both tell there customers that pay them to build there engines. "oh I don't think you need more horsepower, you just need more practice".

[Super Dave]

Jim would prefer to sell them a suspension package first because he recognizes that helping a rider be successful with a better handling motorcycle is better for business than one with HP and no handling.  Jason's been in the same boat before too.

[eeky]

Just a little historical perspective on the subject of SS may be insightfull. As a "charter member" of CCS I was involved in the initial discussions with Rodger Edmondson when he started CCS twenty some years ago.

At the time WERA was the main competitor to CCS. WERA had strict production based racing. Stock exhaust, stock cam timing etc. When Rodger came out with the SS rules it was a major departue from WERA.

I was appalled at how liberal the SS rules were and argued strongly against them. Rodger looked me straight in the eyes and said "I'm trying to compete in a limited market, why should a customer buy what I'm selling if it's exactly what my competitor is selling?"

I'll have to admit that pretty much stopped me cold. He had a good point. His vision was to change production racing from showroom racing to tuner based racing. He told me that to grow the sport he wanted to bring in more companies and products. This he argued would increase the sponsorship and contingency oppertunities.

Was he right or not? You be the judge.

At the time WERA and CCS shared at lot of tracks in the midwest. As such most of the guys riding production bikes set them up to WERA specs and ran both series. Nobody optimized to CCS SS rules. Over the years the two organiztions pretty much stopped sharing tracks and riders and some people started optimizing to CCS SS rules.

What Jason said in his initial post about my views is basically correct. I have in the past argued for stricter rules. I lost the initial argument with Rodger and I have continued to lose recent aguments with Kevin. The most recent being aftermarket ram air being allowed on bikes that didn't originally have it.

Also, I wouldn't necessarly characterize the CCS rule book as having grey areas. I think it only has one, but it's a big one. I think it's very easy to understand once you realize the underlying principal behind the CCS SS rules. WERA tells you exactly what you can do in superstock, and that's it. If they don't specifically mention that you can do it's restricted. Basically CCS on the other hand tells you exactly what you cannot do. If they don't specifically mention something it's not restricted. CCS in my opnion has never done a good job of communicating this one vital principal. People are continually astounded by the fact that my SS bike is legal.

What Jason did get wrong are the numbers on my SV SS bike. The best motor I ever had was 74 dynojet SAE hp. The current weight is 288 lbs wet w/an empty gas tank. I have no idea what the ram air adds  but  I'm guessing it's a lot less than 11 hp.

Those numbers didn't come easy and they didn't come cheap. They did however come legally. My SV is the result of a lifetime of accumulated ideas, knowledge, resources and persistance. I offer no apologies for the existance of that motorcycle. I did this project for two main reasons. I wanted to build a SS bike to the absolute limit of the rules to see what was possible. I also wanted a bike to that was competitive at the ROC.

In 1999 I went to the Daytona ROC with a totally stock SV. While I was able to win the infield I got blown away on the high banks and finished 4th. That result is what convinced me to pursue the SV SS project.

National racing is very different from regional racing. Particularly at Daytona. I've won the Daytona ROC LWSS 3 times now with my SV. As hard as it may be to believe that bike has never been the fastest SS bike there. At it's best it's been just as fast. My largest victory margin ever was less than 1 bike length. I'm talking about top end speed here, not acceleration. At Daytona top end is paramount, acceration, not so much. We've got the acceleration thing pretty much figured out, now we're working on the top end speed.

My point here is CCS SS is not AMA SS or WERA Superstock and never has been. I've tried myslef to get the rules changed to be more restrictive. I was not successful.

Ed Key

[fourandsix]

I bet jim and jason both tell there customers that pay them to build there engines. "oh I don't think you need more horsepower, you just need more practice".

Yes that is actually what i tell them to do , read some of my other posts!

[Super Dave]

At the time WERA was the main competitor to CCS. WERA had strict production based racing. Stock exhaust, stock cam timing etc. When Rodger came out with the SS rules it was a major departue from WERA.

I'll add my part.  WERA and CCS existed side by side when I started.  We started by racing WERA because of the location of the races.  

Production, as Ed says was that.  My street bike was a GSXR750 that was fitted with a Vance & Hines exhaust system.  It had that because I had a street bike crash, and I wanted the "performance upgrade" and it was less expensive.  

With that modification, my GSXR750 was now a WERA "superbike".  

That limited me to one racing class a weekend as a novice.  Great fun.  In the history of everything, "supersport", and basically production based motorcycle racing class with "limited" modifications has been successful.  I'm with eeky.  

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

I bet jim and jason both tell there customers that pay them to build there engines. "oh I don't think you need more horsepower, you just need more practice".

Wow what a cheap shot! Do you know me? Have you ever been to Speed Tech or 4n6 for that matter? Before you assume check with the sources first.
Maybe you should actually read the post and UNDERSTAND what we are saying before you shoot.
Here is a line I said. I'll post it here so you don't have to scroll back:
"Racing is about the whole package. Bike (which consist of hundreds of variables) rider (which have just as many), team players, mechanic (if you have one). Try to balance all those to make the best package.
When you get it right things will really come together. "

The best package if the fastest guy on the day. If your motor is tired and it is down on power from what it used to be you could still race it and probably go pretty fast yet. But if your racing for money and you lose out 1 or 2 positions because your motor is tired you might lose up to a possible $1500 in just one race. So is that motor freshing job really worth it? Only if it matters to you Not me! I could give a crap if you want it built or not.
I tell it the way it is. Riding skills does and always comes first. To stretch proportions lets say you give a Ducati Supebike to a first time rider on the street and me a Katana 600 or better yet an EX250, who do you think will go faster? Not hard to figure out right. So riding is first.
I personally have been racing for 25 yrs and I'm 29 years old. I have gone through the hard knock of tough learning and have started my shop on the basis of my riding skills. I'm the first guy to tell any customer what my opinions are about what you really need. The question is asked is " What it worth to you?"
Heres an example: Buy a department store helmet or and Arai, Shoei, or Suomy? Hmmm.. They all protect but the top brands do a better job don't they?
Maybe you'll figure it out one day after going through what we have been through as racers & shop owners.
If your motor is weak and it needs to be freshed up yes I would recommend it. Cam timing helps. Fuel Injection tuning helps, Ignition timing helps, New rings help, fresh bearings help, But the amount it helps is very small compared to understanding the proper way to shift or brake or lean, ect....
I run Race Fuel that cost me $275 per 15 gallons at AMA Nationals. Do I need it. Hell yah. Because it makes 7-8 horsepower and the engne burns cleaner. In a race I will use 2.5 approx. of fuel. So the cost? So thats 18.33*2.5=$46. Lets see the difference between 9th & 10th is about $800 after contingencies. So yeah its worth it. And the extra motorwork to squeeze every little bit out at the line each lap is worth it too. It pays for itself in my case since I'm racing for money.
If your forks are bouncing or chattering or the bike won't turn I would diagnose the situtation as to whether its the rider causing it, If not then make changes to the suspension next.
If your and amauter or expert racing for no money and only a piece of wood maybe not worth it!
So like I say, "What's it worth to you?." Everyone has different goals.
So I say it like it is and I know Jim pretty well. He says it like it is too.
All of it is worth it to use because we are in the business of building RACE BIKES! We build them to the best of our knowledge to help the rider acheive a faster lap time.
If that is not your goal then I don't know why your racing. I race to win not finish in the back.
Funny thing is even though I tell some guys they DON'T need something they get it anyways because it makes them feel faster knowing they have it. Like a ridiculous paint job on a race bike or a set of Ohlins internals. So mentally I can't help guys there. What ever makes you feel faster I guess. You tell me what you want & I'll build it. That's my job.
My job is to solve riders problems. Customers only come to me because they have a problem. Bike isn't fast enough, not cool looking, handles bad. It's my job as a competent racer and motorcycle performance shop to analzye his problem & fix it whether its on the bike or in the riders head. Oh I forgot to mention, I do charge for classes I have at my shop for riding skills.
Have a nice day. Hope that cleared the air on that issue.
-Farrell

[Stone]

In 1999 I went to the Daytona ROC with a totally stock SV. While I was able to win the infield I got blown away on the high banks and finished 4th. That result is what convinced me to pursue the SV SS project.

National racing is very different from regional racing. Particularly at Daytona. I've won the Daytona ROC LWSS 3 times now with my SV. As hard as it may be to believe that bike has never been the fastest SS bike there. At it's best it's been just as fast. My largest victory margin ever was less than 1 bike length. I'm talking about top end speed here, not acceleration. At Daytona top end is paramount, acceration, not so much. We've got the acceleration thing pretty much figured out, now we're working on the top end speed.

My point here is CCS SS is not AMA SS or WERA Superstock and never has been. I've tried myslef to get the rules changed to be more restrictive. I was not successful.

Ed Key

Ed...I was out there this last time and saw what it ment to have a fast bike. I was told by other racers that the "real" fast guys dont run the GTO race at daytona due to it trashing their engines. After running the GTO race and winning I soon understood. I had a problem arise in the SS race that cause the motor to glitch in and out on the deceleration and I crashed in turn one. After the race I took the bike over to the dyno to see if I could duplicate the problem...unfortunetly it didnt. But what I did see was that my bike was down from 155hp to 128hp on a 04 1k gixxer.

The point that I am trying to get at is that at the level that I was racing (AM) I was able to pull some tricks out of my bag and make it up on the infield and go on to win two more. On the flip-side...I will never return to Daytona again having the slowest bike...especially going expert next year. Experts have their game on and hp is a major tool at the hands of these capable riders.

I saw first hand the difference in HP when I went up on the banking with Barnes. I hung with him all thru the infield and once on the banking he left me like I was sitting still. I remember by the time I was coming off the banking...barnes was crossing the finishline! The banking to me requires the least amount of talent..it just takes the balls to hold it WFO the first time and the rest is finding the right line around it (just to the right of the white line).

This thread interest me the most because I am currently building a new bike for next year. I have a guy by the name of Evan Steel doing the motor...supersport legal. I am abiding by the rule book. But I'm also not doing certain things so that I can race WERA and AFM. Things like not putting a Brembo on the bike etc. I just dont think that its worth getting caught with your hand in the "cookie Jar" over a few ponies. At this point I can have pretty much anything on my bike that I want...but I choose to have nothing to hide. Hell...If I do get protested next year, I would be pissed as hell that my bike was going to be torn down. Then again...once the truth is told I would be laughing my ass off at the poor F'er and all the crap he would be getting around the paddock!

[TommyG]

YOU hung with barnes through the infield?? And no ride this year?? Maybe it` cuz....
a. He was scuffing in tires
b. He was scuffing in brake pads
c. He was masturbating while riding and you were trying REAL hard
   ;D ;D ;D