Making supersport...supersport

[Super Dave]

I think riders do need to recognize that there is little in the way of affirmitive action in competitive racing.  

There should be a reasonable set of rules that are attainable and measurable.

Even with a restriction of engines, as it appears the real argument is here, it will not make all bikes equal in power at all.  Might, but it is no guaruntee.  

Given that magic idea that the HP of each bike were the same, a rider must recognize that they still might not win and the same riders might still continue to win.

This is a hard thing for some racers to come to grips with.  

Jim has some simple ideas that, while I don't necessarily agree with all of the ideas, I do find most of them intriguing.  There is more than one way to skin a cat.  When it doesn't have skin, it still was a cat too.

I think there is a reasonable amount of frustration that some times needs to come out.  I don't know if it matters who's fault it is...  The HP issues will never change;  someone will always have more.  Even spec engines have different amounts of power, and some riders either just rider better or know about set up more...or really just bought new tires and know how to utilize the extra traction.

Jim's done this for "a couple of years", so I think he might have some knowledge about why riders might win.  

If blame lies anywhere, it is with the racing organization that has continually escalated the changing of rules away from the historical intention of "supersport".  Similarly, the blame lies with lax attitude of riders that complain, but do nothing.

For a couple/three years, pump gasoline was not allowed under the CCS/FUSA rules.  Is that ridiculous?  There can be reasons for it, but the rules were not written by CCS to eliminate pump gas.

Jason, I'm still hoping that you'll come up with some ideas for what you'd like changed.  Maybe some will support it, and some won't.  Might be too late, but who knows.

[LMsports]

Good post Jim!

[grasshopper]

Very Knowledgeable reading, lots of good opinions, and points of view.

Thanks!

Nick

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Road America, Formula 40.  SS rules.  Third row, but I got the start of my career.  As I banged second gear, I had a wheel in the lead!
By the time I shifted into fourth gear, I was in 8th place.  As I exited turn 5 thirty seconds later, I was watching 7th place disappear under the bridge at the top of the hill.  For those of you who haven't raced at Road America, that's about a two city block gap.  I finished in 8th place.
I got the holeshot, but my race was over before turn 1.  I'm not sure how much riding skill had to do with that, but I'm pretty sure horspower played a part.  I had an "identical to mine" GSXR750 pulling me by 3-4 bike lengths per gear.  How much lead does that equal to between 14 and 1 at Road America?  What exactly should I have done to ride around that problem?
Some guys use 600 bikes in F40.  Later that season, I had "SS legal" first gen R6s pulling away from my K1 GSXR750 down the straight.  I'd carry more corner speed, gain for the first 50 feet after the apex, and then it was like the other guy hit the NOS button!  My 750 made 128 hp on the dyno, but the 600s were able to out-accelerate me.  My teammate had an R6 that wouldn't out accelerate me, but his wasn't quite as "equal" as some others I competed against.
No, I'm not the best rider in CCS, but that was pretty damn disheartening.

[fourandsix]

Go to Superbikeplanet.com and read the 2nd part of the Jim Allen Interview. Some interesting coments.

[fourandsix]

Road America, Formula 40.  SS rules.  Third row, but I got the start of my career.  As I banged second gear, I had a wheel in the lead!
By the time I shifted into fourth gear, I was in 8th place.  As I exited turn 5 thirty seconds later, I was watching 7th place disappear under the bridge at the top of the hill.  For those of you who haven't raced at Road America, that's about a two city block gap.  I finished in 8th place.
I got the holeshot, but my race was over before turn 1.  I'm not sure how much riding skill had to do with that, but I'm pretty sure horspower played a part.  I had an "identical to mine" GSXR750 pulling me by 3-4 bike lengths per gear.  How much lead does that equal to between 14 and 1 at Road America?  What exactly should I have done to ride around that problem?
Some guys use 600 bikes in F40.  Later that season, I had "SS legal" first gen R6s pulling away from my K1 GSXR750 down the straight.  I'd carry more corner speed, gain for the first 50 feet after the apex, and then it was like the other guy hit the NOS button!  My 750 made 128 hp on the dyno, but the 600s were able to out-accelerate me.  My teammate had an R6 that wouldn't out accelerate me, but his wasn't quite as "equal" as some others I competed against.
No, I'm not the best rider in CCS, but that was pretty damn disheartening.

Good point ! The things i wouldhave been looking at is my bike tuned as well as possible , out of tune can be 5hp or more different. Was the other guys using race fuel ? Am i geared correctly? So manythings that are not expensive can make a difference. The R6 is probably lighter , maybe the rider is also 10 or more lbs lighter. We raced 750 supersport one year at AMA and had to put 20lbs on our 600 to be legal. That weight cost us almost 2 sec per lap!

[tstruyk]

RA... aerodynamics can play a roll there as well... figure if I am giving up 30lbs to a guy I am more than likely requiring more air to be moved as I blast down the straight (or straights for RA)  gotta be a disadvantage there as well that has nothing to do with HP equivalency...

[mike_gantz]

"earn your rewards". that is the idea jim.not buy your rewards. current SS rules give the advantage to racers with more money that should not be the case in SS. the idea behind a closer and less expensive class is to let the riders with more talent than money have some fun tooo!!! we are not talking about new riders learning how to ride or ama racing,all way off topic. and before you tell me that I should learn to ride first. my ability has nothing to do with this. when Ed Key and damico are behind stiffer rules that,should be enough ability and experience for my vote.

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Chris was your GSXR up to par?
Another thing to consider is Power to weight ratio.
Every 7lbs = 1 Horsepower in acceleration.
I've tested this theory with many riders and many bikes. On the street I have seen 600's pull 750 just because the heavy guy was on the 750 and flyweight was on the 600. I mean smoked the 750.

Just another thing to consider.
-Farrell

[fourandsix]

"earn your rewards". that is the idea jim.not buy your rewards. current SS rules give the advantage to racers with more money that should not be the case in SS. the idea behind a closer and less expensive class is to let the riders with more talent than money have some fun tooo!!! we are not talking about new riders learning how to ride or ama racing,all way off topic. and before you tell me that I should learn to ride first. my ability has nothing to do with this. when Ed Key and damico are behind stiffer rules that,should be enough ability and experience for my vote.

How many classes should they have? Should they base it on bike value? Yes it is riding ability, lets put you on Ed's bike and him on a bone stock one . Tell me who would win?

[LMsports]

sometimes more stringent rules actually mean more money will be spent exploring ways around them. There is no way to take the financial aspect out of racing. It is a part of the game...period.

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

I recall having less go fast components on my race bikes than my competitors all my career but I still won races all the time! Even Supersport.

What needs to be changed here so we don't get out of context about what this thread is all about is the supersport rules on what is allowed and not allowed should be more defined to make it easier for the guy with less money to compete.

No carbon fiber bodywork, no titanium parts, no major engine work. No updating of parts from newer models. No master cylinder changes.
This way the guy who is broke will feel like it is fair for him. Although it won't really matter much it will still give that broke rider some piece of mind that he really could only finish 3rd. If he wins now and beats guys like Ed Key or myself because the class if fair we will still never really know if it was because the rider got faster or the bike was more capable of reeling the other guy in.
I know it won't happen in my classes since my bikes are so very close to stock anyways.

Or it they still lose it will just cause them to look for other excuses besides their riding skills.

The reason pro riders are fast is I say again because they are very good riders with the whole package that works.

So to solve this dang thing and keep it from starting a war I think is to make supersport like the AMA rules and keep peace of mind in the pits that everyones bikes are fair. But then again you never know who is cheating!!!!!!!!!!!
And if you know they are will you tear them down??????
According to this site noone will tear you down so cheat all you want but the fast guys with the package in regional racing will ALWAYS win anyways!!!

I'm just laughing as I read these responses from everyone because I don't and have never cheated and have never felt a need to but I still kick a!! when I ride. And on top of it all I'm never worried if someone is cheating or not.

I could cry that Jeff Wood's GSXR 600 only made 95 horsepower at Road America in April of 05 Formula USA Sportbike race but I won't. My bike made 103.9 & Conrads made 104.5 in a 105hp class on a Factory Pro Dyno.
Clearly Jeff Wood pulled from me on the straights and I couldn't even draft him.
I just said right out to him and his mechanic ya! What F!@#ing ever and laughed. He won Conrad 2nd and I was 3rd.
Did I cry? NO!
I'll just kick his !ss next time.
He has to live with the guilt that he cheated not me.
Who cares? Now imagine when I beat him next time how he will feel!
-Farrell