Making supersport...supersport

[Super Dave]

Well done, Guy.

[CCS_Roadracer]

Last time I check I didn't see any engine builders paying out contigincy money ::)  So how would that prevent Super Sport racing for getting sponsers to pay for contingincy?  The Sv racers are not asking for a show room floor class we are asking for a level playing field that is reasonably cheap.  Jet kit, pipe, suspension, brakelines, brakes, clipons rearsets bodywork ect.  Not ram air Ti bolts and parts, carbon fiber bodywork total loss ign. ect.

I just wanted to add a few hundred thoughts to this link.  I can understand allot of the viewpoints that people have on this subject.  The one thing everyone is forgetting is that if super sport becomes showroom stock racing there would be no room for aftermarket parts.  Once that happens you can kiss any contingency money away.  What interest would companies have in putting up product money into a class that no one is allowed to use their products?  If you really want to balance the field it would have to be power to weight ratio.  The simple fact is CCS cannot do this for free, so entry fees would go up.  And can you imagine how much extra work this would be for every one (riders included).   I have pitted for Ed on FUSA races and it adds allot of extra work for the crew if you want to be competitive.  We normally add one more crewmember for these events.  
    Here are some thoughts on the subject of whom you think is cheating.  I can say from my experience that as I learn to ride some of my competitors seemed to be exceptionally faster than me.  It is very easy to automatically suspect people of cheating.  As I became a better rider I found myself passing some of these same individuals.  I then thought about how ignorant I was assuming people were cheating.  Then I thought....  Hmmm.... I bet some of them think I am a cheater.  Well here are some things that I think are essential to all of us having a good time...  That is what we are here for anyway.  Honestly, Look At Yourself First, most fast guys are better riders than you want to believe.  Secondly, when someone blows your doors off you should be thankful for the lesson on how to go faster, watch them you might learn something.  Lastly YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WIN TO HAVE TONS OF FUN ON A RACETRACK.  If you are only riding because you have to win, you are missing a giant part of this sport.  The best time I have ever had on a motorcycle was in a race with Gerald Lehman (I am sure that I screwed the spelling up) over 5th place.  We figure that about 15 passes took place in one sprint race, too much fun.  At that moment in time I would not have cared if he were riding an R1, our rider/bike packages were even enough for us to have fun together.  We all should have a passion for competition against the track and one another, not just for a race win.  
     I really do not understand people cheating, I am sure some people do it.  I could never feel like I accomplished something if I was cheating.  For those of you that are cheating, I have a question for you.  How can you ever feel good about the position that you earned with an illegal motorcycle?  You will never be able to answer the question of: Did I win, or the cheater bike?  Here is another thought.  If you suspect someone of cheating put your money where your mouth is and protest him or her.  If you can justify spending money to make you bike faster, you should be able to afford a protest.  Then in theory the cheaters would be caught and you could probably scare some of the others away from cheating.
      Last thought I promise (the height of soap box I am on is frankly, Dizzying).  Some people actually like working on their bikes.  If the rules were changed such that you could no longer modify your bike, a portion of my enjoyment of this sport would go away.  As far as the thought of making eveything superbike;I do not want to have an expensive strung out super bike motor that requires allot of attention.  Besides almost all people get motor work (at least the machining part) done professionally.  We do not have the equipment to do so at home.  You can modify your motorcycles chassis and suspension at home.  Ok I am done now.  Lets all have a big group hug.  And in the profound words of Rick Bruer "SHUT UP AND RIDE IT YA GIRL"  (sorry ladies, it was not intended to offend)

Guy  

[EX_#76]

The comment I made regarding engines was in response to the person who suggested that super sport be eliminated and all motorcycles would just conform to super bike rules.  As far as I am concerned eliminating Ti, carbon fiber, ram air, and total loss ignition is a great idea!!!  How would you then police it to ensure equality?

[tshort]

The comment I made regarding engines was in response to the person who suggested that super sport be eliminated and all motorcycles would just conform to super bike rules.  As far as I am concerned eliminating Ti, carbon fiber, ram air, and total loss ignition is a great idea!!!  How would you then police it to ensure equality?

Easy - just state in the rules what mods are allowed (as someone mentioned in this thread earlier, I believe - like 5 or 7 pages ago), and limit mods to those only.  Here's a start, from the Canadian SV Cup rules:

1. Lightweight SuperSport motorcycles must meet the General Equipment requirements except as noted:
a) The exhaust system may be replaced with commercially available aftermarket exhaust systems meeting mandatory track noise limits.
b) The rear shock may be replaced with an after-market shock.
c) Front forks must remain stock. Internal springs, valving, and oil may be changed with any aftermarket components.
d) [deleted - Pirelli spec tire rule - that's a whole 'nother can o' worms...]
e) Steel braided brake lines may be used to replace stock lines. Calipers and rotors must remain stock. (After market brake pads are acceptable.)
f) Horsepower limit: 75hp measured at the rear wheel (Sanctioning body to enforce if required). My add to this:  mandatory dynoing when a dyno is available for top three finishers.
g) OMIT: Suzuki & series sponsor decals must be displayed on prominent parts of the motorcycle.
h) Genuine Suzuki SV650S or aftermarket replica bodywork can be used.
i) Starters, alternators, air boxes, carburetors and EFI must remain stock and functional, however carburetor jetting or EFI may be adjusted.

I like that as far as it goes, but I'd add the following:

The following items may be also be replaced with commerically available items:

* a smaller battery is allowed, but it must be permanently mounted in the stock location

Except as noted above, the following items must remain stock  (in case you didn't understand the above paragraphs):

* engine compression and displacement
* engine heads, cams, valves
* all other internal engine components
* all ignition system components (spark plugs and wires are open)
* subframe
* fuel tank
* any other items not specifically referenced in the above sections must remain stock.  Consult tech inspection if you have questions.

Now this may not be dead nutz complete, but directionally it seems to me it would go a long way toward leveling the playing field, don't you think?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

THat would do it.  And since my 2003 SV made 74 HP with just a pipe and an ignition advancer key, this would be easy for anyone to acomplish.  Then the big question would be how do the various bikes stack up if they all follow the same rules?
Ov course, all of Ed's lightening tricks would still be legal, because they aren't prohibited by supersport rules.  There would need to be a bit more clarification, such as "Aftermarket windscreen, clip-ons and rear sets allowed.  All other pieces of the original motorcycle must be present and unmodified."

[tshort]

There would need to be a bit more clarification, such as "Aftermarket windscreen, clip-ons and rear sets allowed.  All other pieces of the original motorcycle must be present and unmodified."

Yeah, that was the point - unless the rules say you *can* do something, you can't.  So lightening anything would be prohibited.  I think the stuff about clipons and rearsets is in the general section for bike prep, but if it's not then you're right - it would be called out explicitly in the LW rules.  And Ed's bike would need to be changed a bit ;).

[Super Dave]

Ok, then...

How do you police it?

How does one determine if something is fiberglass(legal) or carbon fiber(illegal under some ideas)?

How do you determine if a stock aluminum bolt was replaced with a steel or titanium bolt?  What if the OEM bolt is out of stock?  

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Simple.  Police by protest.  If specific bolts are protested,  The protester supplies one of his bolts for comparison.  Then randomly choose another bike of the same model from the paddock to compare if the first two don't match.
Bolts aren't the enemy.  Bolts are just one aspect of weight savings.  And weight savings aren't really the enemy unless you race Ed Key!  Not many other guys have supersports like the one Ed has built.  The enemy is the guy who runs an SS legal bike in all the other modified classes, decides to modify BEYOND ss legal, but keeps running ss anyway.  That's cheating, and it's bull$hit.  Find a way to police that without forcing riders to protest each other.  Keep in mind that Ed has painstakingly, laborously, and expensivly mined the rulebook for LEGAL ways to make his bike faster, and that he's just about alone in that quest.  I respect what Ed has done, because it's devious, diabolical, and PERFECTLY LEGAL!
For the most part, race officials willingly work their butts off to make it a good show.  So why not give the tech guys a compression gauge and one of those tools that measures displacement through the plug hole.  Then you go off the factory specs, and randomly test after a race, just like airbox checks.

[Super Dave]

The enemy is the guy who runs an SS legal bike in all the other modified classes, decides to modify BEYOND ss legal, but keeps running ss anyway.  That's cheating, and it's bull$hit.  Find a way to police that without forcing riders to protest each other.

So why not give the tech guys a compression gauge and one of those tools that measures displacement through the plug hole.  Then you go off the factory specs, and randomly test after a race, just like airbox checks.

I don't know if CCS, as a club racing organization could find it in their budget to do it.  

Cheating is cheating, and that's easy to police if someone would protest.  But then the penalties would need to be painful too...not so tolerant.

[Super Dave]

And HOE BIZ...

That's cool... ;D

[tshort]

"the lower the stakes, the greater the politics..." :-/

I think you guys may be making this unnecessarily complicated.  Do you really think that guys cheat in LWSS?  I mean, I suppose they certainly *could*, but we're not talking about 600s here, where winning means the potential to move on to bigger things in racing.  The new guys who do want to move up are going to move up to MW or HW anyways (look at Janisch or some of the other young guns) - you think they are going to start out cheating?

We're talking about old guys (like me) who want to keep racing, have fun and still feel competitive; and newbs to racing of all ages who want to just try it out and see if they can do it; or try it out and just do it.  

Sure, at the top of the classes you're going to find fierce competition.  But even then, I question the assumptions that Dave is making about people's willingness to intentionally cheat in *this* class.  Last time I checked Pamela Anderson (or her lookalike) was not waiting at the finish line of the LWSS race at Blackhawk, RA, or even ROC with a double magnum of champagne, a kiss and a check for a few grand.

Couple that with the fact that there's hardly any EX racers running LWSS anymore - because they've built their bikes and they *know* they are not SS legal - and you would have a hard time believeing that any of the three or four or five guys out there in a regional LWSS race was cheating.

I say keep it simple.  If some crazy yahoo wants to go spend a thousand bucks on Ti bolts/axles to *intentionally* (not you, Ed) break the rules then a) who the heck is gonna care that much?; and b) a magnet would sure sort it out quickly if anyone really suspected (Dave, I don't think there's much in the way of aluminum *bolts* on an SV - I'm having a hard time thinking of even one).

I've been beaten plenty of times by guys on bikes that I'm sure were not much different than mine - because they were just plain faster.  That's it.  And 99% of the time in LW I'd be willing to bet that it's the same in other regions.

As for HP/engine displacement/other internal mods - put a max 75HP and some kind of min weight limit in the rules for this class, and check it at the FUSA weekends when there's a dyno and scales available - top 3 guys.  That would force the cheaters to have two SS bikes - one legal and one not, or place out of the top three on 8 weekends a season.

After that, just about everything else you'd want to check can be done visually.

CF bodywork?  Geez... I don't know that that would matter that much.  Sharkskinz are pretty darn light.  Again - we're not talking fame and glory here - you want it that bad, go for it.  I'll take a big dump right before the 5-board, run faster, and still beat yer butt anyway  8) :P

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

And HOE BIZ...

That's cool... ;D

;)