Making supersport...supersport

[Super Dave]

Experts have their game on and hp is a major tool at the hands of these capable riders.

Then FUSA results would be based on HP only.

Fact is, set up is still paramount.

Total package.  And just 'cause you're an expert, it doesn't give one all the resources to "have a 155HP GSXR"...

[mike_gantz]

that wasn't a cheap shot.I was just being honest.most of the "racers" agree that there should be more stringent SS rules.and we were talking about ways of making the class with stiffer rules=less mods=closer racing=less expense. fun for all.there already is classes for racers with more money and time than they know what to do with. superbike,GP and GT races. then you and Jim gave input that everything should just be left alone. "its all in the rider" well thats not always the case. when a bike is 50lbs lighter than yours or has 15more hp because you dont have the 3grand it takes to build a SS motor. it becomes a little silly. I just found it humorous that 2 guys that make money off of building SS motors and dont show up and race in the class that is being discussed would feel it should be left alone.thats all. whats wrong with the idea that there should be a class that allows very little mods so everyone is on equal equipment? thats what would happen if it was HP to weight ratio. it would be FANTASTIC!!!!!!! even better, ratio including rider weight so the bulkier guys are on the same level.that would be the best racing ever.

[Super Dave]

Jason does race in Supersport.

Jim has done work on my supersport motor, but we don't go to the extent that is avaiable for CCS racing's supersport class.  Jim doesn't race, unless you count the racers around the country that rely upon him for chassis and some motor work.

Which part is true about them not participating in CCS supersport?

If every motor were stock, there wouldn't be equality.  I'm not sure if you understand that, but in production, nothing is perfect.  I raced in a truely stock class, and I had a slow motor.  Great, now what.  When you're all beating your head against the ground to make money, now what?  No equality there.

One year, a rider I worked with bought a bike so he could focus on AMA Supersport.  Recognizing that riding and his chassis were important, he did leave his motor alone.  His bike happened to have a "ringer" motor.  Maybe it was made on a Wednesday when someone wasn't stressed, we don't know.  But even the factory riders were complaining how fast it was and they were talking about a protest.  He thought it was great 'cause he could get some extra racing money for a tear down.

For me, I fully expect that if the rules dramatically change, the first thing that Jim and I talk about will be the suspension, because it is the most important.  Everything else, well, you do what the rules allow and what you feel you should do based on that.  

[fourandsix]

that wasn't a cheap shot.I was just being honest.most of the "racers" agree that there should be more stringent SS rules.and we were talking about ways of making the class with stiffer rules=less mods=closer racing=less expense. fun for all.there already is classes for racers with more money and time than they know what to do with. superbike,GP and GT races. then you and Jim gave input that everything should just be left alone. "its all in the rider" well thats not always the case. when a bike is 50lbs lighter than yours or has 15more hp because you dont have the 3grand it takes to build a SS motor. it becomes a little silly. I just found it humorous that 2 guys that make money off of building SS motors and dont show up and race in the class that is being discussed would feel it should be left alone.thats all. whats wrong with the idea that there should be a class that allows very little mods so everyone is on equal equipment? thats what would happen if it was HP to weight ratio. it would be FANTASTIC!!!!!!! even better, ratio including rider weight so the bulkier guys are on the same level.that would be the best racing ever.

I understand what your saying but you just havent been around long enough. Without having the skill needed to win a race it makes no diff what hp or weight your bike is.I have seen slow bikes with good riders win more races than slow riders on fast bikes. As far as combined bike and rider weight ,that is a silly proposal.Thats like me telling the NBA to change the rules so a short 49yo guy can be competitive, so they should make all the tall guys play on their knees.Motorcycle racing is a competitive sport , if you can't  be competitive find a dif sport. I find it interesting that everyone always thinks it should be fair. Also a SS motor isn't $3000 unless your paying way too much! Look at all the trackday guys buying 1000cc bikes . Guess what they still will be slow as they park it in the corners. So hp means nothing till you learn how to ride and then how to actually race.Oh and as you replied , no i don't race but probably know more about it than you from being involved in it for a few years. Then again i do know about building motors and bikes and you don't have a clue!  Jim

[grasshopper]

The fact is, to be competitive throughout a whole CCS weekend you have to have 2 bikes. One SS legal and the other SB prepped. The SS bike will not be competitive in the SB, GP, or GT classes. If you want to race supersport, you have a supersport bike, you may be fast in the modified classes but the good riders on built bikes will beat you. I am living proof. The people that were their with me know what I'm talking about....

Racing is not cheap, and if you want to be competitive it all boils down to RIDER TALENT, TIME, MONEY, and RESOURCES.

BOTTOM LINE.

[Super Dave]

The fact is, to be competitive throughout a whole CCS weekend you have to have 2 bikes.

Really, so when I carried a number one, and used one bike, I wasn't competitive?

Tommy, when you had a number one, how many bikes did you have?

I won some Unlimited Supersport and Unlimited Grand Prix Championships with a 600 too...and that was before the points system was in it's goofy previous state...

No, you don't need two bikes.

At Daytona last year, Yates qualified faster on his Superstock bike than he did on his Superbike....

So?

[Super Dave]

I have seen slow bikes with good riders win more races than slow riders on fast bikes.

  Jim

Wisdom...

[grasshopper]

Really, so when I carried a number one, and used one bike, I wasn't competitive?

Tommy, when you had a number one, how many bikes did you have?

I won some Unlimited Supersport and Unlimited Grand Prix Championships with a 600 too...and that was before the points system was in it's goofy previous state...

No, you don't need two bikes.

At Daytona last year, Yates qualified faster on his Superstock bike than he did on his Superbike....

So?

Having a 10 hp to 15 hp down SUPERSPORT LEGAL machine doesn't help racing in SUPERBIKE, GRANDPRIX, GT, OR THUNDERBIKE.

Does it Dave?

Not everybody is SUPERDAVE or YATES!

If you are racing a 10 to 15 hp down bike and beating everyone, every race, in CCS CLUB racing you don't belong their, you should be racing PRO, because you are so suppierior and better and have so much more talent than everyone else.

The fact of the matter is, and I really hope you see my point, is that if you have a SS legal bike, TECHNICALLY you won't be as competitive against guys with close to the same amount of talent on a 10 to 15 hp stronger NON SUPERSPORT legal bike.

Am I making sense or just talking out of my A$$?

[Super Dave]

Out of your a$$...

 ;D

This is a competition.  HP is not the whole package.  If it was, we could all stop buying tires, and we could just go to the dyno and run 'em.

We wouldn't need brakes either.

And we wouldn't need riders, right?

So, have you only been beaten by riders that had more HP?  Is there more to this road racing thing?

In 1994 I was invited to ride an old bike.  It made 51HP.  I beat guys in a second wave that were on current run production Ducati 851's and 888's with slicks, etc.  Yeah, they weren't racing me, but they weren't catching the guys that I was that they were racing against.

Rider?  Package?  HP?  

Can HP help?  Yeah.  Can a good rider help?  Hel1, yeah!  Can a handling package help?  Certainly.

Which do you want to buy?  

In drag racing you need traction and you need to cut a good light.  Red light the start, and all the HP doesn't make any difference.  

[G 97]

Whatsup.  Never thought I would see the day that  Jim, Jason and Rosno get called out all in the same thread.  This is just classic.   ;D

Rider talent and ability will always trump everything else.  Sooner or later talent gets recognized and everything else will follow.

[Jeff]

The fact of the matter is, and I really hope you see my point, is that if you have a SS legal bike, TECHNICALLY you won't be as competitive against guys with close to the same amount of talent on a 10 to 15 hp stronger NON SUPERSPORT legal bike.

Am I making sense or just talking out of my A$$?

So that it's just not SD or Jim replying, I'll throw in my nickel...  Yes, you're talking out of your arse.

If all things were "equal", yes, you would have a valid point.  Equal as in, a grid full of riders with unquestionable talent and bike setups which could not be improved upon.  

THEN... and only THEN would HP be the major (but still not _only_) determining factor.

At a CCS weekend, that is not "seldom" the case, it's *NEVER* the case...  If it was the case, it wouldn't be called CCS, it would be WSB/WSS/MotoGP.

Instead, you're running against Backyard Barney who pieced together a 92 600 CC bolt bin with duct tape and safety wire, as well as someone on the latest R6/636/600RR/GSXR, as well as someone on one of those bikes but a few years old.

Talent (largely fueled by wisdom - which can be further defined as applied knowledge), is the deciding factor.

You would be NO MORE COMPETITIVE on a separate SS/SB bike as you would on either bike individually.

Would a Hayden or Bostrom be more competitive on a different SS/SB bike on a given CCS track?  Probably, but even then, not by much.  

I'm not sure how many more people have to say it before you get it...  Collectively, there's like 500 years of racing experience all saying the same thing.

[Zac]

Wow, 8 pages on supersport rules.

At this rate we should all just race 250 GP bikes, impose an easily attainable 230 lb min weight, and be done with it.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

-z.