Making supersport...supersport

Started by damico, December 09, 2005, 05:34:46 PM

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damico

Now that things are kind of changing, maybe if we b*itch about it enough we could get a real supersport class.  I will use Ed Key's bike as an example. And before anyone goes squealling to Ed that I wrote this, I talked to him multiple times on the subject. He, suprisingly is all for it and stated that he was sick and tired of the way the rules were written and could not get them changed, so he decided to build a bike that highlighted all the gray areas.
  That being said how can a "supersport" SV weigh in at just over 300# and put out almost 85hp be legal for supersport.  Ram air, no charging system, and lots of Ti and carbon fiber sounds like a showroom stock SV to me, RIGHT? It was told to me that there is not enough time to properly tech the rules needed to have a true supersport.  Fusa did it with a dyno and scales. OK a dyno might be expensive but two bathroom scales are accurate enough and cost about $20. How about making protests cheaper with higher penalties if you are cheating. And for the person that protests where it involves a tear down...The protester must provide and have on hand the gaskets to reassemble said parts (incase they are wrong) and an example of the parts in question( for comparison. This keeps Larry from holding a set of cams up and saying "yup, looks stock to me"). For example: I want to protest a 600 for having a 3mm motor. I must then furnish a head gasket, and possibly a few other gaskets, and the measurements from a service manual for the machine in question. Or I must show a set of stock cams that measurements can be taken from there on the spot if the cams would be in question. This I think might keep some cheating in check.
Any other thoughts I just kind of started thinking about this.  Supersport is intended for you to show up with your nearly showroom stock bike and be competitive even if you don't have Shawn Higbee like talent.

NumbskullzSE

I would LOVE to see a supersport class that is much closer to stock. It makes for much more fun racing.
It would worry me to have all the parts and specs for all the bikes in a class that I am going to protest, but even if they could just tighten the wording of the rules, it could make it better. --I believe if the rules are written very specifically by listing only what you may do and state that you can do absolutley nothing else it would help. Cheaters are going to cheat one way or the other, but it may be much more noticable if they are totally gaping people on the straights when the rules are strict.
This was my first season running some WERA races and it seems like they have a more strict supersport class and I liked that.
Yes, Kevin Elliott, please tighten the wording of the rules.
My 2cents. Now go buy a calendar.  www.AmericanRoadracer.com

TommyG

While I understand your rant Jason, my opinion is that you could change the rulebook to say a supersport  engine must remain completely stock and sealed as it came from the factory and you would still have the exact same amount of cheating.
Ed will still win and one guys 600 will still seem to be way faster than anothers.
Just my two cents.

WebCrush

yea, and right now triple clamps, brembo radial masters, and cut subframes are all legal in CCS SS.

That just seems wrong.

ninelives59

I agree super sports classes should be as produced.You should not be able to alter base gaskets in sv motors or mille heads but every one is doing it.The first year I built my 03 sv I got out powered by a bunch..Last year I went and did somthing about it.I built a quote supersport legel motor making 84hp on fusa dyno.I also did all the tricks subframe,brembo and a bunch of TI stuff.. It all starts with CCS TO ENFORCE IT ALL! :-/
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Super Dave

I'd like to see something reasonable.  

But sometimes it can go both ways.  If one makes it so that one has to use stock bolts, etc., how do you enforce it?  Do you make riders wait for back ordered parts?  There isn't an easy way to tell if something is "titanium".  Might look like something else.

But I don't think that Supersport should allow no starter, no charging system, etc.  

Radial master cylinder?  I don't know if that is a performance advantage, but, for me, it's a lot of help for my wrecked forearm.  It doesn't allow me to go into a corner later, but it allows me some consistent ability to maintain even pressure over the course of a race.  That's safer for me.  And with the cost of a Brembo master cylinder through one Japanese manufacturer, it's inexpensive.

Protests...first, each tech should have a whistler that will give the engine displacement without tear down.  Remove plug, insert, turn over.  Easy.

Disregard for the rules should be handled accordingly.  Unfortunately, I have been in the secondary postion of helping do a tear down for a rider that was protested....because he protested another rider...and he admitted that he was illegal.  There were no ramifications for specific or general deterrence for that knowingly committed act.  And the resulting protest was deemed to be in retaliation by the tech inspector and the referee, but the race director upheld the protest.

Why should some riders try to be legal?

You have specific ideas Jason.
Super Dave

J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp

It would help if the tech guys actually worked at the race track and did their jobs. It seems to me they just want a smooth uneventful weekend so they don't have to work so hard. Just collect a pay check and go home kind of attitude.
Honestly the tech guys should have a book with all the information needed to check the specs of all the bikes that could possibly be running in each class. They should also have all the tools needed to check those measurements in question. The tech guy must also know how to use the tools and know what their doing.

Funny the end result is that there will always be cheating in any level of racing no matter what. If the AMA guys don't cheat the R&D will take longer to make better & faster bikes. The manufactures competing against each other by making better bikes results in the average street squid or racer getting all excided about the new better bike and going out and buying one to race. If they never changed that would be supersport. In my opinion if you want to race true supersport go race ARMHA or some series like that where the development doesn't change.

I can just about supply all the spec #'s for all the bikes measurements needed. It just takes a tech guy who is serious about his job and brings that information to the track along with the tools needed. You can measure cam lift but unless you have a cam doctor you can't actually know the cam degrees.
CCS should supply that tool for the tech guys.
I agree that the rules should be written more clear on what can be allowed and anything other mods can't be done period. It helps the guy with less green in his wallet be able to be more competitive through his riding skills.
Honestly I think HP rules are crap. There are so many ways around that. With all the new fuel injection & ignition programs it is very easy to cheat the dyno.
Grey areas are part of racing. They will always be there no matter what the rules.
You could say to run sealed motors but its not fair for the guy who got a motor that was build on a Monday or Friday. Nothing is fair I guess.
I see it as racing is the whole package and you need to play within the rules and grey areas. Pushing those grey areas only makes for new rules to be made the next season.
Honestly Cut subframes shouldn't be allowed nor should aftermarket triples be allowed. But those are the rules so you can do it.

So my final say is that they should changes those a little bit although I don't think it will make one guy faster or slower especially on a regional level. Maybe thats why they allow it.

Another thing to consider is the cost of racing will go up with the more staff needed to check all the bikes for legality.
It's so scewed up when you are in top 3 of a supersport race when you go to tech and they say oh you showed up to tech, good job now get out of here you passed. Thats so dumb. Talk about laziness! At least check the simplicitys.
I wonder if they don't check anymore because they don't want to disqualify someone and then piss them off and lose yet another series rider with the already thinning fields we have in racing?
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tzracer

QuoteI'd like to see something reasonable.  

But sometimes it can go both ways.  If one makes it so that one has to use stock bolts, etc., how do you enforce it?  Do you make riders wait for back ordered parts?  There isn't an easy way to tell if something is "titanium".  Might look like something else.

Actually there is an easy way to tell the difference between titanium and steel - a magnet works great.
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kvanengen

     hi there, I hope all is well. In no way was Jason D. saying that if you make Supersport really Supersport that the outcome of the race will change. To tell you the truth if everyone was riding equal bikes, riders like Ed k. would still win by a half a lap. That will never change. The real reason we need to make the rules more strict is not so more people have the chance to win, but  so more people can afford to come out and race with us without having to get a second job. Like Jason I am a lightweight rider. To come out to the track with SS lightweight bike it will cost you about $4000.00 (not bad). Now what do you think it costs to have an Ed Key SS bike? I am only using Ed's bike as an example because we all know him and we know the effort that he has gone through to make an exceptional SS bike. Making the rules more strict won't take true riding ability away from any one, it will only allow our sport to grow by allowing more riders to join CCS.

Now don't play the school girl role and come back at me to argue or to ask how I plan to make this all happen, because I don't have a great answer for you right now.  All I want to know is if there is anyone else who thinks that we should pursue the change in the SS rule book. (We all know we will never be able to stop everyone from cheating, but I think we can revise the rules enough to shut guys like us up).If there are enough of us out there, then let's stop talking about it and find out what our next step is to making this happen. If know one else cares, then let's not make it a big deal and have some fun in the 2006 season
HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY AND GOOD LUCK IN 2006 !!!

weggie_man

First let me say Ed Key does not cheat but, he does use the rule book to his advantage. CCS has changed the rule book several times due to Ed's wily ways but, he still wins......and he keeps beating up the rule book because CCS leaves the gray areas in there.

The rule book needs to be written not  telling racers what they can't do but what they can do, and only what they can do. If the rule book doesn't say you can replace/alter/modify something then you can't, it's as simple as that.

It's not a secret that Ed has a much different SS bike than anyone else but then Ed's been playing this game a long time and he knows his way around a bike. I guarantee no one else out there spends as much time going over their bikes searching for ways to get more speed, more of advantage over his competitors than Ed does.

As for other "cheaters" I guess if the tech people are not doing their jobs, as has been reported in other posts, maybe you riders need to follow up on that and get someone in charge to pay attention to that situation.

I also agree the tech people need the tools/specs to do their jobs. Those should be provided by CCS. I'm quite sure the specs are all available from the manufacturers. Truthfully, the reason FUSA and WERA went to dynos and scales is to avoid all the specs, there are only two to worry about, HP and weight. Makes the tech job much easier

grasshopper

#10
I am completely supportive of making the sport easier for new people to get into, as I'm sure everyone else is.

So what needs to happen? What rules need to change SS for the better? Do we need Tech inspectors to have more education and more literature on motorcycles that race in SS? Do we need Tech inspectors to care more?

Is the Dyno and the scale that big of an issue to get? Is that the answer to catching the cheaters?

Let's start a scenario.

Let's say I win LWSS on my SV. What should the procedure when going straight to Tech. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars, straight to Tech.

BESIDES CHECKING MY AIRFILTER INTAKE HOLE...LOL.

I could have CAMS, OVERBORE, PORTED AND POLISHED HEADS... But the guy checks my freakin airfilter. LOL!!! Now thats funny, I don't care who you are....


Super Dave

QuoteActually there is an easy way to tell the difference between titanium and steel - a magnet works great.

Aluminum...

And if we'd like to talk about how it's done in car racing, getting around the rules for steel driveshafts and magnets...

It's easy to over come.

Super Dave