Making supersport...supersport

[Protein Filled]

Yeah Chris. You and your 400 pound fat a$s would get pulled by an SV!!! specially since you are such a sissy that can't open the throttle fully!

There will never be a real way to make a class to fully showcase rider skill. No matter what, people will find a way to cheat. I have been beaten by guys with much faster bikes as well as by guys with much slower bikes. It's all about rider skill. Why is it that the AMA pro's can get on a bone stock bike straight off the showroom and go within a few seconds of their best times on their fully developed race bikes?

Chris was your GSXR up to par?
Another thing to consider is Power to weight ratio.
Every 7lbs = 1 Horsepower in acceleration.
I've tested this theory with many riders and many bikes. On the street I have seen 600's pull 750 just because the heavy guy was on the 750 and flyweight was on the 600. I mean smoked the 750.

Just another thing to consider.
-Farrell

[dsb]

Just out of curiosity, and please excuse my ignorance if this is out of left field...

Do the 125 guys have these 'cheater' discusions like this? It seems that they have much less restrictive rules than SS (except the min weight in USGPRU) but maintain what seems to be pretty close racing. Although, it does seem like the same people seem to gravitate toward the front...

When the Aprilia cup was running, was the general concensus that it was an equitable series? Or was there a lot of the 'he's got the money so he wins' stuff?

Personally, I wouldn't care what someone else was running if there was a fair minimum weight rule (rider and bike combined please...) or maybe a weight/hp ratio... Or would something like that be to hard to police?

[Scott_T]

Us 125 guys don't  have a problem with anyone
cheating.  About everything that is on the faster
bikes is easily available to everyone. With the two
strokes it's mostly having the ability to tune and jet the motor. Ive been running 125 for 8 years and have never seen anyone caught for cheating. I do know of 2 different times when a rider was DQ'ed for having the rider/bike combined weight be less than the 300# min.(not the same person both times) I'm
about 60# over the min so I spend the time and effort to set up the bike as a whole as well as I can.
And then ride the shit out of it to keep up with kids that have 50 #s (eqaul to about 7 hp) on me. When a bike only makes 40ish hp you learn how to ride real quick. That's why I also spent the money on a
bunch of ti bolts,carbon wheels, tank, fenders and
bodywork.

[fourandsix]

I agree , ban carbon fiber and ti. Seems easy enough i would think. The problem with a hp thing or dyno thing is you could take a 600 and stroke it so to speak and then you have a bike that will be under the hp limit but have gobs of grunt. You can also electronically without the use of any special switch reprogram the ecu at the end of the race to kill the power a bit. Just rock the on of switch in a certain sequence before you pull off the track . There is a company in belgium that does it for $350 or so US dollars.  Jim

[a13x]

I'll just kick his !ss next time.
He has to live with the guilt that he cheated not me.
Who cares? Now imagine when I beat him next time how he will feel!
-Farrell

eheheh

I enjoyed reading that post.

[tshort]

Hey guys - haven't been around much lately, but was interested to read this thread, and good reading it has been...

You know, I never really much cared about bike mods my first year racing my SV as an AM.  With venerable Ed's guidance, and some patience and crashes I learned a ton my first year - and won a bunch of races on my nearly-stock, heavy a$$ '02 SV (it had a jet kit on it - that was it).  I raced five classes per weekend, and when I didn't crash I came away with five chunks of wood.  (Oh, and I was one of those "old guys" you all were talking about earlier - I was 43, I think, when I started).

Anyhooo...what I learned that year was this:

Bikes aren't fast - riders are.  All you newbs out there, repeat that a few times to yourself as you whine about mods, etc.

Number two:  Ed doesn't race LWSS - at least not as an AM!  And you know what? Most of the guys racing AM don't build their bikes much at all.  Total loss ignition on an AM SV?  I only saw one in 80 some races (Guy, you know who you are ;) ).

And experts?  It took me a few weekends to figure this simple truth out in my second year: most expert SV pilots don't have SS-legal SVs (I may be dumb, but I'm slow...  ;))  So guess what? If you want to race five races each weekend *and* be competitive in LW you're gonna need two bikes.  The class could sure as heck use it.  I used to come in third almost every weekend in LWSS as an expert (ok, that was last place, but still...)

BUT - if you don't mind racing only four weekends and being competitive, then build the crap out of your SV and go for it: LWSB, LWGP, TB, GTL - heck even Supertwins is fun, and if yer an oldie, F40).  That's *six* classes, and you don't need a SS-legal bike for any of em.

(And then re-read my brainfart above: Bikes aren't fast, riders are.)

[Super Dave]

And experts?  It took me a few weekends to figure this simple truth out in my second year: most expert SV pilots don't have SS-legal SVs (I may be dumb, but I'm slow...  ;))

I'm curious about this.  

Most EX SV riders don't ride in Supersport with their bikes because they are not supersport legal?  Or their bikes do not meet the rules of supersport in CCS?  They were torn down?  Or they freely admited it?

[tshort]

I'm curious about this.  

Most EX SV riders don't ride in Supersport with their bikes because they are not supersport legal?  Or their bikes do not meet the rules of supersport in CCS?  They were torn down?  Or they freely admited it?

They know they don't meet the rules of SS.  And if they tried to race SS, chances are their buddies would know what was not SS-legal about their bikes and protest to CCS.  Remember, for the most part EX racers have been at it for a few seasons - you have a pretty good idea who's who, what they are riding, and what they've done to their bike.

[PJ]

I'm curious about this.  

Most EX SV riders don't ride in Supersport with their bikes because they are not supersport legal?  Or their bikes do not meet the rules of supersport in CCS?  They were torn down?  Or they freely admited it?

Many have obvious modifications that disallow them from SS, like GSX-R forks.

[Super Dave]

Most and many...

Ed still has stock forks on his supersport SV.  Can still win Superbike.  

Whatever...

[tshort]

With the stakes *so* high in the LW classes, you can bet there are guys out there with monster-built motors that are illegal, etc, so they can go out to BFR, spank the field and brag to their buddies when they get home.  ::) NOT.

Fact is there are things that can be done to the SV to make it go better, that would be difficult to detect without a full teardown.  But given the guys who are racing in these classes, I never got the feeling that any of them would go that far in deliberately building out a supersport bike so they could go out and win that class.  But maybe that's just in the Midwest.  In the other classes, I'm having a difficult time coming up with anything you would want to do to an SV that would be illegal (OK, a bored out 750 turbo might not fly).  And if there is I'm sure Mr Key will be able to tell us exactly what that is (cuz he's probably already thought of it).

[EX_#76]

I just wanted to add a few hundred thoughts to this link.  I can understand allot of the viewpoints that people have on this subject.  The one thing everyone is forgetting is that if super sport becomes showroom stock racing there would be no room for aftermarket parts.  Once that happens you can kiss any contingency money away.  What interest would companies have in putting up product money into a class that no one is allowed to use their products?  If you really want to balance the field it would have to be power to weight ratio.  The simple fact is CCS cannot do this for free, so entry fees would go up.  And can you imagine how much extra work this would be for every one (riders included).   I have pitted for Ed on FUSA races and it adds allot of extra work for the crew if you want to be competitive.  We normally add one more crewmember for these events.  
    Here are some thoughts on the subject of whom you think is cheating.  I can say from my experience that as I learn to ride some of my competitors seemed to be exceptionally faster than me.  It is very easy to automatically suspect people of cheating.  As I became a better rider I found myself passing some of these same individuals.  I then thought about how ignorant I was assuming people were cheating.  Then I thought....  Hmmm.... I bet some of them think I am a cheater.  Well here are some things that I think are essential to all of us having a good time...  That is what we are here for anyway.  Honestly, Look At Yourself First, most fast guys are better riders than you want to believe.  Secondly, when someone blows your doors off you should be thankful for the lesson on how to go faster, watch them you might learn something.  Lastly YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WIN TO HAVE TONS OF FUN ON A RACETRACK.  If you are only riding because you have to win, you are missing a giant part of this sport.  The best time I have ever had on a motorcycle was in a race with Gerald Lehman (I am sure that I screwed the spelling up) over 5th place.  We figure that about 15 passes took place in one sprint race, too much fun.  At that moment in time I would not have cared if he were riding an R1, our rider/bike packages were even enough for us to have fun together.  We all should have a passion for competition against the track and one another, not just for a race win.  
     I really do not understand people cheating, I am sure some people do it.  I could never feel like I accomplished something if I was cheating.  For those of you that are cheating, I have a question for you.  How can you ever feel good about the position that you earned with an illegal motorcycle?  You will never be able to answer the question of: Did I win, or the cheater bike?  Here is another thought.  If you suspect someone of cheating put your money where your mouth is and protest him or her.  If you can justify spending money to make you bike faster, you should be able to afford a protest.  Then in theory the cheaters would be caught and you could probably scare some of the others away from cheating.
      Last thought I promise (the height of soap box I am on is frankly, Dizzying).  Some people actually like working on their bikes.  If the rules were changed such that you could no longer modify your bike, a portion of my enjoyment of this sport would go away.  As far as the thought of making eveything superbike;I do not want to have an expensive strung out super bike motor that requires allot of attention.  Besides almost all people get motor work (at least the machining part) done professionally.  We do not have the equipment to do so at home.  You can modify your motorcycles chassis and suspension at home.  Ok I am done now.  Lets all have a big group hug.  And in the profound words of Rick Bruer "SHUT UP AND RIDE IT YA GIRL"  (sorry ladies, it was not intended to offend)

Guy