Making supersport...supersport

[grasshopper]

Out of your a$$...

 ;D

This is a competition.  HP is not the whole package.  If it was, we could all stop buying tires, and we could just go to the dyno and run 'em.

We wouldn't need brakes either.

And we wouldn't need riders, right?

So, have you only been beaten by riders that had more HP?  Is there more to this road racing thing?

In 1994 I was invited to ride an old bike.  It made 51HP.  I beat guys in a second wave that were on current run production Ducati 851's and 888's with slicks, etc.  Yeah, they weren't racing me, but they weren't catching the guys that I was that they were racing against.

Rider?  Package?  HP?  

Can HP help?  Yeah.  Can a good rider help?  Hel1, yeah!  Can a handling package help?  Certainly.

Which do you want to buy?  

In drag racing you need traction and you need to cut a good light.  Red light the start, and all the HP doesn't make any difference.  

If I'm talking out of my A$$, then why does Ed Key have 2 bikes? Why does Ed have his SS spec bike and his SB spec bike?

[grasshopper]

So that it's just not SD or Jim replying, I'll throw in my nickel...  Yes, you're talking out of your arse.

If all things were "equal", yes, you would have a valid point.  Equal as in, a grid full of riders with unquestionable talent and bike setups which could not be improved upon.  

THEN... and only THEN would HP be the major (but still not _only_) determining factor.

At a CCS weekend, that is not "seldom" the case, it's *NEVER* the case...  If it was the case, it wouldn't be called CCS, it would be WSB/WSS/MotoGP.

Instead, you're running against Backyard Barney who pieced together a 92 600 CC bolt bin with duct tape and safety wire, as well as someone on the latest R6/636/600RR/GSXR, as well as someone on one of those bikes but a few years old.

Talent (largely fueled by wisdom - which can be further defined as applied knowledge), is the deciding factor.

You would be NO MORE COMPETITIVE on a separate SS/SB bike as you would on either bike individually.

Would a Hayden or Bostrom be more competitive on a different SS/SB bike on a given CCS track?  Probably, but even then, not by much.  

I'm not sure how many more people have to say it before you get it...  Collectively, there's like 500 years of racing experience all saying the same thing.

Sorry buddy, but when you are on a SS legal bike racing in SB, GP, GT, or thunderbike, fighting for 1st or 2nd place and the 2 guys ahead of you have that much more horespower it does matter. Go race a SS legal bike in any of the other modified classes and tell me how you do.

I want to hear about one person, name them and I'll shut up, who goes out and wins races on a SV in the modified classes (GP, SB, GT, THUNDERBIKE) CONSISTANTLY, and the SV is SUPERSPORT LEGAL.

[Jeff]

Sorry buddy, but when you are on a SS legal bike racing in SB, GP, GT, or thunderbike, fighting for 1st or 2nd place and the 2 guys ahead of you have that much more horespower it does matter.

You're talking about isolated incidents.  I say that because in MOST classes, the people who are in SB/GP/GT and are in 1st, 2nd, 3rd - are ALSO running Supersport on that SAME BIKE.

Go race a SS legal bike in any of the other modified classes and tell me how you do.

I have for the last 5 years.  I finish very respectably.  I don't win everything, but I'm generally 5th-8th with my share of podiums.

And it's not HP that's holding me back...

I want to hear about one person, name them and I'll shut up, who goes out and wins races on a SV in the modified classes (GP, SB, GT, THUNDERBIKE) CONSISTANTLY, and the SV is SUPERSPORT LEGAL.

SV?  Couldn't tell you.

Wanna talk MW/HW/UNL?  I can start a very long list...

Or then again, we could all be wrong...

What is it that you're looking for out of this thread?  Someone to say HP makes the difference?  Great!  HP makes the difference...  Hey, when you go and have your motor built, consider MD Racing and tell Matt I sent you over.

[fourandsix]

I think if you talk about the SV class yes it is whored up. The SV type classes should be for the newbie racer or the older guys that are just rtying to have fun. In that respect grasshopper is correct. Most SV guys do cheat from what i hear , cams and such.If Ed Key used the rules to his advantage good for him,anyone else can do the same thing so quit whining about it. It's all part of the competition. I remember going to my first race , it was a WERA event in 1981 or so. We had a Seca 750 then and when i showed up there were maybe 10 of them. My bike was in fact way faster than the others as it was more superbike than supersport . Guess what Ed Key was there winning races and i think in one race he beat us. Yes our rider had never roadraced until that weekend. Faster bike slower rider we lost.So if everyone in the SV class pushes the rules like ED he still will win.

[G 97]

I think if you talk about the SV class yes it is whored up. The SV type classes should be for the newbie racer or the older guys that are just rtying to have fun. In that respect grasshopper is correct. Most SV guys do cheat from what i hear , cams and such.If Ed Key used the rules to his advantage good for him,anyone else can do the same thing so quit whining about it. It's all part of the competition. I remember going to my first race , it was a WERA event in 1981 or so. We had a Seca 750 then and when i showed up there were maybe 10 of them. My bike was in fact way faster than the others as it was more superbike than supersport . Guess what Ed Key was there winning races and i think in one race he beat us. Yes our rider had never roadraced until that weekend. Faster bike slower rider we lost.So if everyone in the SV class pushes the rules like ED he still will win.

1981?  :o   Holy Sheet.  I was in Jr. High.  Man, you are old.  ;D

[Super Dave]

I want to hear about one person, name them and I'll shut up, who goes out and wins races on a SV in the modified classes (GP, SB, GT, THUNDERBIKE) CONSISTANTLY, and the SV is SUPERSPORT LEGAL.

Well, yeah, Ed Key.  He doesn't race the Superbike all the time because it is stressed.  Save that for opportunities when there is a cash payout.

[PJ]

I want to hear about one person, name them and I'll shut up, who goes out and wins races on a SV in the modified classes (GP, SB, GT, THUNDERBIKE) CONSISTANTLY, and the SV is SUPERSPORT LEGAL.

Off the top of my head: David Yaakov, John Linder, Darren Danilowicz and Ross Ryals. These guys, among others, have SS legal SVs that compete and win in the modified classes.

Ed Key has also used his SS legal SV to win races in the modified classes on occasion.

My SS legal XB is reasonably competitive in the modified classes as well. In 2004, I won two races in LW SS. Two in GT Lights. And one in Thunderbike, SuperTwins and LW SB. I also finished on the LW SS podium at the ROC behind Ed Key and Nate Kern.

That said, I may quit running LWSS next season. I don't think I made a dime in contingencies for the class due to small fields.

[grasshopper]

Well, with all that said, I think I'll just shut my mouth and go about my business, see you guys at the track some time!  ;). NOT RACING SS.  ;D

[cleezmo]

Sure HP can hold you back to a degree, but at the end of the day, the faster rider usually finishes ahead.

I raced against a sea of SVs on an ancient '91 GS500 for 3 seasons. They'd all blow past me on the straights. So I'd have to work harder on the infield to catch them. As a novice I was consistently in the top 4-8 with a couple podiums in LWSS, LWSB, GTLights. Being so slow compared to the SVs made me learn to ride the front tire harder, to make my time up in the corners, and to start my drive as soon as frickin' possible. I can tell you that while it was frustrating to get beat by a slower-in-the-infield but passed-me-like-I-was-standing-still on the straights bike, it was awesome to beat them! It made me learn to RACE (finding places to pass, using a line to keep them from getting the best drive out, etc.), so it was a good experience. My last name will never be Hayden, but if I can finish ahead of guys w/ more motor, you probably can too.

But, guess what? I was down 20hp on those bikes by choice - if I wanted to be competitive, I'd have bought an SV. I couldn't afford it, so I raced what I had and tried to learn and improve.

HP is a factor IF "all other things are equal". As many have said, that virtually never happens. If 5-10 ponies are the difference between you placing 4th and placing 1st, buck up and pay for 'legal' motor work - your choice. But for those of us mid-pack and farther down, learning and improving our skills and our setup should be priority.

Do you think Mladin's Yosh GSXR has 15 more ponies than Yates' or Spies'? Hmm, probably not. So how come he consistently finishes ahead of them?

[Gixxerblade]

Do you think Mladin's Yosh GSXR has 15 more ponies than Yates' or Spies'? Hmm, probably not. So how come he consistently finishes ahead of them?

He's in their head.  ;D

[damico]

Hey grasshoper,
You asked to name someone that has raced a SV that was ss and competitve in sb. Jesse Janisch raced his SS legal SV in all the SV legal classes and has won them all. And he was even racing Ed at the time. I know for a fact that it was legal because I rode it and Jim can back me because they built it. Jesse even entered gtu at gingerman and at gateway and WON that on a SS legal SV. When I raced a Hawk and a 916 I blew my 916 up and ran my hawk in GTO and finished 3rd at Blackhawk. It was a SS legal hawk.

Jim,
I have been involved in racing for awhile, and ever since I began have heard and respected you and what you have put into this sport. But, two things caught me by suprise about you during this thread. 1) You seem to have the blinders on and have forgotten what we are talking about here on this forum. This is CCS, this is supposed to be  grassroots racing, a place to get started. There are maybe six people during any (non oem paying)blackhawk weekend that have gotten any type of significant money sponser and have any realistic chance of "making" money that particular weekend.  You operate the weekend as a business at a bit  of larger scale at larger events. What most of us are trying to acheive is to be able to afford to go to a race weekend and be able to afford it on your average 40hr a week job and still be semi competitive. The guys with huge talent like Blake Young or Jesse or J. Farrell can still show up and smoke everyone and then decide to step up to the next level(fusa,ama) and make a go at it.  Those guys will always be fast, I would just like some type of rule structure in place were I can show up with a (more strict rule)SS bike and have at least some peace of mind that the guy next to me has the same bike. I don't have a right answer for it yet but we are working on it.
2) I was suprised to see you getting into a battle of belittlement with a am rider. Telling a new rider they don't have a clue or your smarter than they are, or they should find a new sport, was very disappointing to hear coming from you. Being a business owner I would think you would want to try and earn these new racers repect and maybe try to teach them something. Maybe offer to show them a few bike set-up tips, or things to concentrate on while you are riding. Offer to do some suspension tuning to prove to them that you have an understanding of what is needed to go fast or at least improve their riding. This may gain you a customer who brags about what you have done for them and what you could possibly do for others. Instead you chose to puff up your chest and told a new racer they don't have a clue and possibly created yet another NON-customer!
Maybe I took your post the wrong way, I hope that is the case. I am hoping you will clarify what you ment by your post and if not step up and reevaluate the advice you gave to this potential customer.  
Hugs and Kisses
Jason D'Amico

[fourandsix]

I might have been a bit frustrated as most of the posts are am riders looking for an easy way out. (and a few experts too!)This is racing even at the grassroots level and crying foul all the time is counterproductive. Do what it takes to be a better rider not more hp is the only answer. It also won't be the first or last time i piss off a potential customer! i have that effect on people sometimes! The thing you will get is brutal honesty and not coddling. I never blow smoke up anyones butt or tell them how their manhood will grow if i do anything on their bike.
We have been successful at all levels of this and flattrack racing why ? Because we work hard at it. When we first raced AMA i didn't walk around begging for fairness i saw what the factories did and tried to emulate. Same when i first did grassroots.
Racers need to change the the way the think , instead of i can't , they have to say i can ! This sport is not an entitlement or affirmitave action program you have to earn your rewards.  Jim