Making supersport...supersport

[EX_#76]

Make sure that you state what dyno is being used.  A factory dyno like the one used during FUSA events yields a HP reading about 15% lower than a Dynojet dyno.  Ed SS bike makes 73.5 to 74 Hp on a dyno jet and 66hp on a factory dyno.  That Hp number is to high.  It takes VP fuel to get that number.  You guys are looking to reduce cost so the HP should be more like 72.  for the 99 -02.  Here comes the first problem I have heard that an 03 can make up to 76hp on a dynojet.  What about the XB12 that bike will make 95hp on a dynojet.  Even Mark Brenards old Buel made over 90Hp.  That is why the rule needs to be a power to weight ratio.  Checking the power to weight ratio once in a while would not help that much, but it is a start.    

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

If we make it a power to weight class, let's measure weight with the rider aboard.  I would get to run a Gixxer thou in lightweight! ;D :-[

[MACOP1104]

WTF!  I'm reading this and I can't believe it. I've been out of racing for a while but from what I remember, SS bikes had a pipe and a jet kit(powercommander), a shock and the forks reworked.  put on some steel braided lines and good brake pads, race bodywork and away you go with DOT tires.  It needs to be that way again, and that's the bottom line.....  You wanna play with that other stuff, build a superbike.  If your 3 year old bike can't compete, then sell it and upgrade.

[damico]

MACOP1104 I don't know who you are but THANK YOU!!  SOMEBODY FINALLY F**king gets it!

[tshort]

WTF!  I'm reading this and I can't believe it. I've been out of racing for a while but from what I remember, SS bikes had a pipe and a jet kit(powercommander), a shock and the forks reworked.  put on some steel braided lines and good brake pads, race bodywork and away you go with DOT tires.  It needs to be that way again, and that's the bottom line.....  You wanna play with that other stuff, build a superbike.  If your 3 year old bike can't compete, then sell it and upgrade.

+1

[thunderracing91]

WTF!  I'm reading this and I can't believe it. I've been out of racing for a while but from what I remember, SS bikes had a pipe and a jet kit(powercommander), a shock and the forks reworked.  put on some steel braided lines and good brake pads, race bodywork and away you go with DOT tires.  It needs to be that way again, and that's the bottom line.....  You wanna play with that other stuff, build a superbike.  If your 3 year old bike can't compete, then sell it and upgrade.

Interesting..........everything you said is on my bike and nothing more......thats what I thought SS was about?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

That IS what SS is about.  The problem comes when Guys use that same bike in GP, GT, SB, Super Twins, or whatever.  So they change things that don't show, like cams, compression, or bore size.  This is outright cheating, and I've seen it personally.

Mark Donahue wrote a book called "The Unfair Advantage."  It documented all the crazy things he had done to make his cars better than the competition.  The man was an engineer who could see his way cleanly around any rule.  Given enough time, genius, and money, there will always be a Donahue or a Key who will find a better way within the rules.  These guys are the ones we talk about when we say "Racing improves the breed," and IMO, they should not be discouraged.  The endless evolution of thought process and redesign that men of this breed display is responsible for the magnificent bikes we can now buy right off the showroom floor.

I abandoned this thread earlier.  I'd related an experience that I'd had at Road America to make a point.  Then a few guys were asking me about my setup, and about how much difference my heavier body weight makes.  WELL, LET ME CLARIFY!  ONE MINUTE YOU CAN RACE SOMEBODY WHEEL TO WHEEL.  THEN HIS SS BIKE SHOWS UP AT YOUR SPONSOR'S SHOP FOR CAMS, A BORE, AND HIGH COMPRESSION PISTONS!  SUDDENLY, YOU CAN'T GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO RACE HIM ANY MORE.  Other riders who you used to be able to compete with find similar gains with no outwardly visible changes to their bikes other than idle quality.  Suddenly the race you used to be IN is now 30 seconds up the road when the checkered flag waves.

Rosno, don't you DARE start talking your shit about how some guys could run sixes on a pogo stick.  That isn't what I'm talking about.  This is hobby racing.  We come to have a good race, and we all bring a certain amount of talent.  When you can run bar to bar with someone and beat them, then suddenly they build a cheater motor and just WALK you with the same bike they had a month ago, that sucks.  It gets worse when the next guy and the next guy do it.  Now they are all still bar to bar, but you're behind and hating it!  And the worst part is if you don't actually end up in the right place at the right time and SEE the cheater motor going together.  Now you wonder if it's just you.  And guys like Rosno enable the cheaters by suggesting that they all just learned to ride better while you didn't.  Great logic.  "Gee, two weeks ago, I used to stay within a bikelength down the front straight, but now I'm 10 bikelenghs back in that distance.  My competition must have figured out how to outride me in a straight line!  I need to be a better rider!"  Gimmie a break!
Screw it.  If I EVER again KNOW FOR SURE that someone is cheating, I'm going to protest.  Even if I came in dead last.

[MACOP1104]

I think a lot of the allowable mods have spilled over from AMA pro-racing.  It was common practice to shave the head or the cylinders to bump compression , so the next year they allowed milling the head.  One year, Everyone was accusing Kawasaki of having a quick shifter on their ss bikes which they fabricated out of the kickstand switch.  The next year, quickshifters were allowed.  Then kit ECU boxes were allowed.  I think the rule book definitely needs to tighten things up to bring down the cost and even things up between those with $ who can afford the mods and those who can not afford the mods.  

[tshort]

Maybe part of the problem involves details in the rulebook, and it certainly seems doable to tighten up SS rules there to address some of this.

Perhaps, tho, it is possible that the overall structure of the classes is more of an issue.  The incentive to cheat in SS is not necessarily so you can win SS, altho that's certainly a nice benefit of cheating and not getting caught.  Could it be that the real incentive is to win in the other three classes - SB, GP and GT??  

The way the regional championship is structured these plus SS are where you have to perform well to win your class in the region.  And in those other classes pretty much anything goes by way of mods to the bike (as long as you keep it within the displacement limits).

Couple that with the fact that the majority of riders cannot or chose not to field multiple machines (it's already a bloody spendy pasttime with just one), and you can start to see how there could be an incentive to shave the heads, bore the cylinders, etc.  If you don't you won't have a prayer in three of the four classes that you must be competitive in, if you want to have a run for the regional title.

Now I don't know that it *would* solve anything, but what if they looked at taking SS out of the points mix for regional titles?  Would that take away the incentive for some to cheat?

[TommyG]

I completely agree with this topic. Damico is easily frustrated by people who stray from the subject but there are many valid points here. The one thing I have seen in supersport time and again ( I`m sure this is what Super Dave is referring to when he talks of rider skill) is corner exit drive MASSIVELY effects straightaway speed. At the front of my local SS races, on my home track, I`ve witnessed riders exit a corner immediately in front of me yet gap me by getting on the gas sooner or put the power down better(less wheel spin due to better set up)
I guess what I`m saying is although cheating is rampant in SS, you cannot judge someone solely on whether their bike appears to be faster than yours!  

[Stone]

You SV guys are killing me with this thread ::)

[Super Dave]

Gimmie a break!
Screw it.  If I EVER again KNOW FOR SURE that someone is cheating, I'm going to protest.  Even if I came in dead last.

Actually, I've said that many times.

I have knowingly raced someone that I knew had a massive overbore on their engine in Supersport.  Beat them anyway.  I know they ride well, and I don't have the money to protest...meaning I don't have it period to put up.  Doesn't matter that I'd get it back.

Ed does what the rules allow.  The current CCS supersport rules are too open.  I think the same of the AMA, but that'a another topic.

Supersport bikes should have starters and charging systems.  Start there.  But I think, given that it's January, nothing will be changed.