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Making supersport...supersport

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Zac

Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2005, 08:35:45 am »
Another issue - how do you deal with the "special" bikes?

Supersport just states that the bike needs to have been sold for street use in North America.

So if you have an R1, you can't change to forks, but the guy with the R1LE already has Ohlins.  Or the guy that spent $30+k on a 999R, still supersport legal.  

I really don't see a lot of need for supersport classes in club racing.  Most of the top guys are winning superbike races on supersport legal bikes (or 1000cc classes on 600s).  How much of an avantage are SB aftermarket forks over a set of SS legal OEM forks with $2k aftermarket cartridges?  We already have too many classes that are run by the same people on the same bikes.  Just eliminate the supersport classes.

A good set of superbike rules will keep out things that are TOO exotic (require frames with VINs, stock engine castings, stock throttle bodies, etc.). This would make Tech much easier and the classes much less confusing to outsiders.  

The facts would remain: Those with the most money will have the trickest bikes (but maybe not the best setup), the best riders will win races, and if you "deserve" to win races because you're a better rider but the other guy has a better bike, maybe you should race AMA supersport and try to win there...

-z.
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J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2005, 08:43:12 am »
Now instead of complaining about all the series rules think of this. Even us racers can't agree on a rule while on this thread! ;D
So I say pick the series you think has the best rules for your race purpose and run that series.
Talking about it helps people understand the differences in riders purposes of being on the track.
Imagine what Kevin Elliot or Ron Barrick goes through!
-Farrell
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r6_philly

Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2005, 08:44:06 am »
Farrel, I agree with what you said... thats why I went and bought a 06 ZX6RR. I want a newer bike for supersport.

I was just saying for the hobby racers who race when they want to stay competitive, rules can be a little different to keep them in the game.

The serious racers are going to buy newer bikes, go to money races and make their races count. I don't have unlimited funds either and I have decided to do what you are saying.

I am just thinking in terms of keeping the field fair. But seriously, selling my old bike and buying  a new one would see me loose at least $2000, then I have to spend another $4000 to buy everything that I had on the old bike (Since they all don't fit the new bike). Thats $6000. I could buy a slipper clutch, 25mm cartridges and get the motor built. and I may end up with a faster bike.

I still think being able to update older bikes is more cost effective to a hobby racer than getting a new bike. But thats just my opinion. besides the Team Green support and contingency make the deal just unbeatable  ;D
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r6_philly

Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2005, 08:45:35 am »
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Now instead of complaining about all the series rules think of this. Even us racers can't agree on a rule while on this thread! ;D
So I say pick the series you think has the best rules for your race purpose and run that series.
Talking about it helps people understand the differences in riders purposes of being on the track.
Imagine what Kevin Elliot or Ron Barrick goes through!
-Farrell


kevin and ron can't walk through the paddock once without hearing 3 different racers complaining about something...  :D I know this first hand lol
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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2005, 08:48:31 am »
Quote

1.5 seconds in a top level club event is a huge difference. .


The point is, will the changes allowed to older bikes still allow them to make up the time?

Doubt it.  

How much faster does a 1000 make a 600 rider?
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Super Dave

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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2005, 08:50:05 am »
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Hmmmm....
I recall of doing my fastest lap in 2004 on a ZX6RR at Blackhawk at a 1:10.6.
Thats a 3 second drop in 3 years. Plus Mark Junge beat that with like a 10.3.


On a track that was completely ground down and repaved.

The track surface and the traction that was available in 2003 was completely different in 2002.

Re read my post.
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Super Dave

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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2005, 08:53:30 am »
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The example of the lap times from Todd & Dave are like apples & oranges. Todd was supreme for his time as a rider. Don't get me wrong but has Dave ever finish on the box 3 times in 1 AMA season?
Don't get me wrong Dave is a good rider but not a top AMA rider caliber.
-Farrell


It was an apples to apples comparison.  Todd wasn't on the box in 1993.  That came later.  He'd win club races handily, and he was regularly inside the top ten and sometimes just outside of it in 1993.  Dave was cleaning house locally at the time also.  
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Super Dave

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WebCrush

Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2005, 08:54:31 am »
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The point is, will the changes allowed to older bikes still allow them to make up the time?

Doubt it.  

How much faster does a 1000 make a 600 rider?


i went faster on my 1k than on my 600, back to back at the same event by several seconds.

don't think you can make an older bike more competitive?  remember what Barney did with an F2 seriously worked over a few years back.
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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2005, 08:56:51 am »
Quote

Slipper clutch for example, if the new bikes come with it stock, then the old bikes should be allow to run an aftermarket unit. Or to be competitive you must go and buy a new bike.

Isn't the spirit of supersport is to prevent people from running expensive, trick, or exotic modifications or components to limit the cost of racing? But when a formally "trick" part is now availalbe as a standard, OEM part, then shouldn't that part not considered "Trick".


In ways, that does have merit.  It is at least reasonable.  But where do you stop?  Do all manufacturers have to have it or two?  Do you allow updating with any kind of product?  Or could you replace your 2000 R6 forks with Ohlins R&T forks?  Or would you be required to source Yamaha spec forks?  Then what about triple clamps?

Those are the problems....
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Super Dave

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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2005, 08:59:10 am »
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Besides that, why would anyone NOT cheat with an older bike? if it is not eligible for contigency anymore, all you loose is your finish if (big if) anyone protest you.


I've got a couple of answers to that.

First, I don't have the income that other people do, so, my first answer is that I, and even some other people, can't afford the cost of cheating.

Then, the other side, is that some might feel that cheating might not be honorable.  
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Super Dave

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Super Dave

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Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2005, 09:01:31 am »
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Vintage racing allows more modifications based on the vintage of the bike, maybe supersport should do the same.


Vintage racing rules are usually developed because of the availability of parts that are hard to get.  Honda made ten sets of factory four into four racing pipes for CB750's.  If those were the rules, use an OEM pipe, you'd be way out of luck...
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Super Dave

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r6_philly

Re: Making supersport...supersport
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2005, 09:03:34 am »
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In ways, that does have merit.  It is at least reasonable.  But where do you stop?  Do all manufacturers have to have it or two?  Do you allow updating with any kind of product?  Or could you replace your 2000 R6 forks with Ohlins R&T forks?  Or would you be required to source Yamaha spec forks?  Then what about triple clamps?

Those are the problems....


I am fully aware of the gray and problem areas. So to be fair, really, is to have a complete list of parts and specs that each bike/model can or cannot have and change it year to year, much like NASCAR, but that would be very very very unrealistic.

So to beat the R1 LE in supersport is to go buy another LE right?

I guess it never really is fair. and you just have to go play in SB.
;D

Well all this is just a discussion, not a rule proposal... just our immediate, un-thought-out ideas.

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