Making supersport...supersport

[Jeff]

Are you going to be able to tell internal modifications without REALLY getting into a motor?  Probably not.  

If a person has to carry the gaskets and an example cam to tear me down, let me know and I'll build the biggest cheater on the planet, because NOBODY would be able to do that...

But let's look at this...  In supersport, you can run:
Full Exhaust
Power Commander (or the like)
Quickshifter
Slipper clutch

And a dozen other HIGH-END go-fast goodies....  IMHO, the only thing "supersport" about the "supersport" class of today is that you have to run DOT tires.

I say OEM exhausts, No fuel injection/carburetion modifications, quickshifter or slipper clutch (unless OEM Factory installed).

As it came out of the showroom less lights/mirrors/bodywork.  Allow for external gearing changes, suspension upgrades (limited) and brake lines/pads, clipons/rearsets.  That's it...

[Super Dave]

I don't think tech inspection says that a bike is legal for a class.  I never saw that as the intention.  Yeah, if you're entering a GSXR1000 in Lightweight Supersport, that's just being nice...send the guy back to registration.

Tech inspection in the AMA, CCS, and the FIM is for generalized safety aspects of a motorcycle.

Some manufacturers don't make certain information available. In the early 90's, the CBR600F2's were good all around bikes.  But there were HRC parts available.  I was told that there were certain aspects of the archetecture of the bike that was not made available to the AMA.  And, like Jason said, you'd need a cam doctor to really tell what's going on with a cam, etc.

I'l agree with Gordy about the rules needing to state that you can do certain things, and the other stuff needs to be left alone.  Ed Key is an outstanding rider that focuses on his riding in an efficient manner, his bikes are well prepared, he follows the rules very carefully, and he works on his set up a lot!  

Yes, I agree that supersport should be tightened up a bit from it's previous language...but it's December...a bit late.

Has anyone made a draft of ideas or attempted to submit anything to Kevin or Eric?

[Mark Bernard]

Is the Dyno and the scale that big of an issue to get? Is that the answer to catching the cheaters?

Let's start a scenario.

Ok... lets say just for conversations sake, I was able to bring a Dyno to most of the midwest events. Would one be willing to pay for a Dyno run? If so how much would one pay concidering the time and effort involved? Would CCS be willing to rent the Dyno for tech? Ans if so how much would they pay?

And if it was agreable to everyone involved, how much more would CCS entry and gate fees go up?

I personally think that a dyno being availble at the club level is a waste of time.

Opinions?

[Super Dave]

Stock exhaust would increase costs.  How much does Honda charge for an OEM exhaust system?  And aftermarket unit is lighter and less expensive to replace.

With the EPA standards being tightened on emissions, I think one needs to allow FI mods.  If not, how hot does your CBR600RR run in GTU at Blackhawk in 95 degree weather.  Again, we want riders to have reliable bikes that don't pop etc.  If a PC, or other kinds of FI boxes work for you...that's going to help.  

Even in production based classes of old, there were modifications that were done that were not picked up by tech inspectors.  

Disassociating the aftermarket from the racing isn't a good thing, in my mind.  It won't cause the manufacturers to step up and put in more money.  Look at the contingency sheets for the names of companies in various production based racing programs.

[Super Dave]

Quickshifter
Slipper clutch

Those, I agree, don't follow with the "intent" of club racing supersport.

[Super Dave]

As it came out of the showroom less lights/mirrors/bodywork.  Allow for external gearing changes, suspension upgrades (limited) and brake lines/pads, clipons/rearsets.  That's it...

I might have been on of the few that has raced that kind of series.

Here comes the problem.  Manufacturer builds bikes.  People purchase.  Racers purchase.  Over time, parts get bought through the channels.  

Some parts are now out of stock from the manufacturers distribution.  Now what?  You're supposed to race, but an OEM part, one that is available through the aftermarket, isn't available for months.

Yeah, ok, we're talking reasonable parts.  Exhaust, air cleaners, clutch plates, brake pads, (rotors of similar size), wheel bearings, tires...

[WebCrush]

Dave--know what the real problem is:

every year the manuf.'s come out with a new or upgraded bike with new parts, new trick stuff, etc.

As much as I hate to admit it, letting people update older models with parts comparable to the new bikes prolly DOES make it more affordable as I don't believe the spirit of the rule is to require a rider to buy a brand new bike every year to stay competitive.

So, while a slipper clutch, radial masters, triples, etc take a bike further away from the intended SS rules--they do make them more competitive with the brand new 06 model which have those items as stock (just not enough)

[Super Dave]

While I agree a little with that, I don't agree with it completely.

Bikes have changed.  We can agree on that.  But how much does it all change everthing given a similar playing field.

Blackhawk was relatively unchanged for some period of time.  The track we raced on in 2001/2002 was similar to the one we raced on in 1993/1994.

The fastest 600 lap times that I knew of in 2001 were in the low 1:13 range.  I believe that was Dave Ebben in July.  I had a decent GSXR600 that year.  Weighed in at 385 or so with 104 to 108 HP.  

In 1993 I know that Todd Harrington was turing high 1:14's.  I had a bike similar to his...a CBR600F2 with 93 HP and I remember going over the scales at 410 at the Brainerd AMA round that August.

The F2 did not have ram air, it had a 4.5 inch rear wheel, twin piston non-opposed brake calipers with fixed rotors, non-cartidge forks, no FI, no rear sets, and the tires of the period.

Certainly, the Honda weighed more, made less HP, and wasn't as advanced as the later GSXR.  The lap time difference was about a second and a half max.

Buying a new bike every couple of years is about remaining elligible for contingency, not necessarily about being competitive at the club level.

Where do you draw the line?

[WebCrush]

While I agree a little with that, I don't agree with it completely.

Bikes have changed.  We can agree on that.  But how much does it all change everthing given a similar playing field.

Blackhawk was relatively unchanged for some period of time.  The track we raced on in 2001/2002 was similar to the one we raced on in 1993/1994.

The fastest 600 lap times that I knew of in 2001 were in the low 1:13 range.  I believe that was Dave Ebben in July.  I had a decent GSXR600 that year.  Weighed in at 385 or so with 104 to 108 HP.  

In 1993 I know that Todd Harrington was turing high 1:14's.  I had a bike similar to his...a CBR600F2 with 93 HP and I remember going over the scales at 410 at the Brainerd AMA round that August.

The F2 did not have ram air, it had a 4.5 inch rear wheel, twin piston non-opposed brake calipers with fixed rotors, non-cartidge forks, no FI, no rear sets, and the tires of the period.

Certainly, the Honda weighed more, made less HP, and wasn't as advanced as the later GSXR.  The lap time difference was about a second and a half max.

Buying a new bike every couple of years is about remaining elligible for contingency, not necessarily about being competitive at the club level.

Where do you draw the line?

1.5 seconds in a top level club event is a huge difference.

C'mon, you know what we tell the new guys--you'll drop 10 seconds your first weekend, 5 seconds you 2nd year, and chase that last 10th of a second the rest of your life.

In the last few years, the 'fast' times for a top level SS prepped bike has dropped 2-3 seconds.

[TommyG]

Rules that are more strict can help and hurt at the same time. The thought that a more strict rule book will stop cheating and make racing more affordable is unrealistic. I think the current CCS rule structure is not all that bad. Why are there almost NEVER any protests? I know this is a never ending arguement, but this is just my two cents.  

[r6_philly]

shouldn't the supersport standard be modified each year to include new technologies as well?

Slipper clutch for example, if the new bikes come with it stock, then the old bikes should be allow to run an aftermarket unit. Or to be competitive you must go and buy a new bike.

Isn't the spirit of supersport is to prevent people from running expensive, trick, or exotic modifications or components to limit the cost of racing? But when a formally "trick" part is now availalbe as a standard, OEM part, then shouldn't that part not considered "Trick".

Besides, paying $700 for slipper clutch is a LOT cheaper than running a $2000 full titanium exhaust system. It is also cheaper than to sell your old bike, get a new one and build that new bike up.

Besides that, why would anyone NOT cheat with an older bike? if it is not eligible for contigency anymore, all you loose is your finish if (big if) anyone protest you. You wouldn't mind loosing the points anyways because if you are serious about a championship you would go get a new bike (or if you are fast enought o finish top 5 all the time you would go get a new bike)

I hate to think my 03 now have to retired to the status of "trackday bike". If I am allowed more mods to keep it on par with a new bike then it wouldn't have to. Vintage racing allows more modifications based on the vintage of the bike, maybe supersport should do the same.

Or maybe a horse power/weight limited rule would make more sense alongside the chasis/tire restrictions. But that is not really realistic as far as enforcement goes...

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Hmmmm....
I recall of doing my fastest lap in 2004 on a ZX6RR at Blackhawk at a 1:10.6.
Thats a 3 second drop in 3 years. Plus Mark Junge beat that with like a 10.3.
Leave the bikes without being able to upgrade to slipper clutches like I had. Thats supersport racing if you ask me.
Keeping the bike as close to stock. If your allowed to make a major change to one model because its behind in technology that isn't supersport really. If brand x is better I guess you need a brand x. Thats what sells the bikes. Then brand y will decided like they are doing on all bikes now (hence the slipper clutch) to build their bikes with better parts. Like the AMA does with their rules. Disalvo claims he can be in the hunt this season because he has a slipper clutch now. It will keep his rear tire from overheating since their is less sliding & chatter from the rear without the slipper clutch.

I understand riders want to make it so everyone has a fair chance without breaking the bank but you still have to spend $1000 for an aftermarket slipper clutch that isn't proven yet. How is that cheaper.

No matter what someone will always be unhappy with any rule change. How is it fair that someone does their homework and buys the best bike out there and leaves it basically stock and starts beating everyone and then the guy with a bike of which is 3-5 years old is crying cause he doesn't have the goodies the newer bikes have.
Here is a suggestion: Sell it and buy a newer one. It will make you more money in the long run anyways. You don't see Larry Denning riding a 2001 ZX6R and buying an aftermarket slipper clutch for it and doing crazy motor work. Larry is a great rider but if he did that it would make his life on the track hell.

The example of the lap times from Todd & Dave are like apples & oranges. Todd was supreme for his time as a rider. Don't get me wrong but has Dave ever finish on the box 3 times in 1 AMA season?
Don't get me wrong Dave is a good rider but not a top AMA rider caliber.

My theory is I don't have a growing bank account at the moment so I choose not to race. I will only run money races on a properly setup supersport bike if I even ride at all. John Ulrich explained it very well to me one day.
Do it right or don't do it!
If you can only afford 3 rounds make it so they are your best races ever.

Just my thoughts on the moment.
-Farrell