National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[Mongo]

I said nothing about who deserved to make comments - however everyone's opinion has a value.  And a racer who has not been through the situation they are complaining about's opinion is worth very little compared to a racer who has actually dealt with the situation themselves.  Why? Because you are making an assumption on how you possibly would feel - and what is fair or not is an opinion, not a concrete fact - yet you can't have felt it yet.  Sorry but the opinions of Expert racers who have lost championships to the people you feel are interlopers counts for a lot more when I am being asked to change rules and regulations.

When I said don't care I meant exactly that, I have talked to many over the years and the majority do not care, they feel that racing is a challenge and if you are not up to that challeneg you lose.  It's pretty simple.  Actually the majority appreciate being able to run against faster racers because it does nothing but improve their game.  There are a number that do care, and they usually run the LW and smaller classes.  My theory is they know they can't make it in the bigger classes so they choose a less competitive environment to prove themselves in order to make themselves feel better.  This goes right along with wanting to be the fastest of all the guys that can't beat you...  But that's a different argument altogether.

One other point while I'm thinking about it - Steve Clarks point about Buschwhackers is actually not valid since the top teams in Busch are the top teams in NASCAR (Rousch Racing, DEI, Hendrick Motorsports etc...) just with different drivers.  This means the Busch teams have access to the same info and resources as the Cup teams.

[Mongo]

The first words out of Jesse Janisch's mouth after Rapp took his championship away were, " I can beat him!" And I can't wait for the day he whoops his ass. Revenge will be so sweet.

So, the rider who it directly affected didn't have a problem with him racing huh?  Actually I think that Rapp as an example is pretty funny since he has been beat by people I'm sure he considers club racers, and it looks as though Jesse knows he can too.  

[sdiver68]

Sean,

I don't have a problem with Rapp or Vesrah Suzuki running.  My comments were aimed at the true factory guys.

If you are in doubt as to who the true factory guys are, just look at whether or not they get preferential treatment at AMA races.  If you run illegal oil pressure relief valve springs and only get fined a few dollars and a few points, you are a factory pro.  If, on the other hand, you place in the top 3 of a AMA supersport race and the AMA tears your engine down to the connecting rods, you are not a factory guy.  If you use scotch bright on your valve stems to clean them, and then get suspended for a whole season due to it, again, you are not a factory guy.

[Mongo]

It's not as simplistic as that and JU's views are not always 100% reality.

[EX#996]

JU's views are not always 100% reality.

  ;D    ;D    ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

You either are the fastest or you are not, being the fastest of all the guys that are slower than you doesn't mean anything, you proved nothing, it's a hollow victory at best.

     I don't agree with your opinion on this. I have played recreational softball almost every year since graduating high school. The teams I have played on were in no way exceptionally talented, but did well. I have to admit that winning the summer league, even at this recreational level, was a goal every year. Having only accomplished it a couple times and going on to tournaments and finishing well but not winning felt like we defenitly had achieved what we set out to do! We gave it our all and did our best competing against teams of similar ability. Would we have felt accomplished if we played against a Pro team and didn't score a run? I doubt it. Would it have been an accurate representation of what the league was about? I don't think so.

     Though I have just been cruising around the track this year for fun and not pushing, I have been a consistent top 5 expert finisher on a GSXR 750 in the past. Having been in front of a couple of the mentioned racers in NASB races in the late 90's, I do have experience with this subject. What I found was that these 'Pro' guys often times had equipment which was superior to what the average club racer could afford or obtain, things like tires, fuel, and suspension components (and needless to say motor). For me to go as fast as them I had to ride harder and closer to the ragged edge than they had to. If I had those resources available to me I could go faster, more easily and safer.

     The ROC is the tournament which competitors of similar ability go to and compete at to find out how they compare to others of similar ability from thru-out the country. As for the cherry-pickers who choose to show up, if that's what inflates their ego, more power to them! It's true that racing with someone faster than yourself will probably help you to get faster yourself, but that is if you can keep up with them. I remember watching John Hopkins (backed by Team Hammer) win several races at the ROC back in '99. He was so far ahead that he was leaving the infield as the 2nd place racer was entering the infield! I don't know how much the 2nd place racer was learning from that or how much of that lead was rider ability and how much was the bike? To me it sure looked like cherry picking.

     Not meaning to sound negative, but why is a Wera rep on a CCS board? I have heard nothing but bad about the Wera board (along with several others) and don't look forward to that atmosphere contaminating our board. Not meant as a personal attack, just curious as to why you are here?

[Super Dave]

Why would it not be fair if Aaron showed up on equal machinery and won?  
 
I'm curious - How many of you arguing here are Expert riders running in the top 5 week in and week out in a 600/750/1000 class?

I think I'm there.

Yes, I don't care who shows up.  I'm there to pound on them.  

"Support" being a factor....

I had Kawasaki support for my road racing school.  So, because of that, I wouldn't be eligible to race according to some.  Not that it really helped my bottom line.  I still probably owe more than most people here.  The fact that I hadn't raced on a 600cc production bike for about six years before hand make a difference?  I was racing vintage bikes for people from '94 to '97.  Does that count as "supported"?

Mike, I don't think Mongo is a mud slinger, so he can be on the board...LOL!  And the racing community is small.  You've got to go anyplace you can to try and gain info.

As for resources being the thing that makes someone go faster...

My best example is Jerry Rothman.  Jerry did well in 1993 in the AMA series.  He had a part time ride with Yosh.  Had an offer from them for 1994, but he wanted something a bit better.  The Yosh program was small, but it was supposed to lead to something bigger.  Jerry decided to follow up on this Yamaha deal, which I think was supposed to be the Kinko's Yamaha thing with Pridmore.  Jerry's part fell apart at the last minute.  In an attempt to do something, Jerry, his brother, and TJ (guy that kind of has floated around between teams) went an picked up a ZX6E and a ZX7 from a dealership and went to Daytona.  You weren't required to have catch pan lowers on bikes, so they actually ran the stock body work.  They threw on a shock, did the best they could with what they could get at Daytona.  Jerry got third in 750 Supersport on that bike.  Ron Barrick was there for the tear down and said to me, "The bike was stock."  He'd of course know that seen so many bikes that "aren't stock".  

Point?  Skill and tallent still matter in road racing.  You still are responsible for setting up a bike and riding it.  And, even then, some people are more gifted and are genetically better in reaction times, sight, etc.  There are still things that cannot be accounted for at tear down.

[lil_thorny]

 Here, Here,
 Dafan.... valid points.
SD, to reiterate, you still have to ride the bike. Skill
is key. How many times did you ride someone elses
motorcycle and run the circuit a little bit quicker?
Not that you are fast or anything ;) ;D, but certainly
more skillful with your vast amount of knowledge and
low center of gravity :o and of course, your staff!!
those of us priveledged enough to have ridden on or
near your staff know how important your bulging network is to our sport!!! ;D :-*
Inbedded and indebted to your staff,
Benji # 30

[Mongo]

Mike - I'm here because I want to get input form racers in order to make our organization better.  The same reason I set up the WERA BBS.  As for it being bad, don't believe everything you hear, there is a huuge amount of valuable information being passed form racer to racer.  There's some silly stuff too but it's only words on a computer screen...

I guess my problem with the line drawing is that the true factory guys don't go club racing.  Steve Rapp is an in between guy really, and ask Jesse - was it Rapps bike that won him that race or his riding?  In my example about Josh - he does show up regularly to our stuff and races on a club level tuned GSXR750 - good club level granted - and his finishes are still the same as when he ran his club effort before the Attack ride - he wins.  So if he stayed or if he got a cool job riding bikes for a living there is no difference in the final outcome.  

Anyway, seriously - thanks for responding, like I said hearing from riders it directly effects does make more of an impact.  And while I may disagree right now, the information isn't ignored by any means.  I have been proven wrong before (althoigh I won't say when, can't bruise my own ego that much ya know).

[Super Dave]

 I have been proven wrong before (althoigh I won't say when, can't bruise my own ego that much ya know).

Yeah, my mom caught me when I was wrong once.....(sigh)once.

[lil_thorny]

Who said it was wrong Super Dave, Doctor Ruth doesn't seem to think so ;D
Benj.

[THE_D.O.C.]

remember, mongo is the guy who condones wera national race winner staying novice, and winning every race they don't crash in the following year. go faster will be his remark. even though the "winning"rider starts the year 5 seconds faster than the next guy. it may be legal for this, and the steve rapps of the world to do this, but it doesn't make them honorable. at best, these blatant pro level guys should pull off.

rapp not even showing up for his trophy proves how pathetic the racket truly is. BW