National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

here's the kicker:
when Griff anounced the winner of EX sportbike at the awards ceremony, Rapp wasn't even there, so Griff asked if anyone could accept for him and I yelled out... "yeah, Jesse Janische can because he won that race!"        silence.
it was awesome.
lil thorny.

How DO you get your leathers zipped over those enormous balls of yours?  Too cool.  I'll have to buy you a beer when I see you next, Champ!
K3

[Super Dave]

YOur argument is that the AMA guys could care less about wining the championship?.. well then they need to stay off the track!!!!

Ok, someone was talking about revenue somewhere....

Sportbike pays a purse.  Rapp was looking for a paycheck.  I can't actually tell you what Rapp makes for cash racing, but I'm sure he's always looking for a raise.  

Amateurs racing experts?  Of course that doesn't make sense.  But once you have become an expert, you're in the club where you can race as a professional.  You could get an FIM license from the AMA, etc.  It still doesn't MAKE you fast.  That's something one has to do on their own.  

The SCCA has run offs for a championship just like CCS.  You're always gonna have ringers.  Still, to get all the better guys that have worked hard to race against each other when they never would have...it's still a cool event.  I have to go back to my experiences.  In 1993, in the races I was in, Yates, Estok, Gerry Rothman, Stu Morrison, Harrington and a whole slew of guys that I knew from the local Cycle News coverage (something that we still don't seem to have in the Midwest region...let's not get me too far off topic) and AMA Pro road racing were in the races.  I really could care less who I was racing against, I didn't have any money, I just wanted to beat them.  Sure they wanted to beat me.  It's a unique opportunity.

As for Rapp pulling off?  Well, yeah, it might have been the better thing to do.  I don't thing the $200 raise did much for his bottom line.  Did Jesse Janisch care?  Nah, I think he would have liked to have beat him heads up.  Next time.

[TightSqueeze]

Back when I was a WERA sportsman racer, I attended every race in my region, and won two regional championships LW Twins and Formula 2.  

Lee Acree borrowed an SV for ONE Sportsman LW Twins race, and qualified for the GNF.  Needless to say, he walked home with the Sportsman LW Twins Nat'l Championship in 2000.  Good for him.

I wasn't so pissed that he could beat me, after all, he's fast.  What burned me is that he attended ONE regional event, then won at the GNF.  It really rained on the parade on all of us that had worked very hard at it the entire year.

So, I asked Mongo(Husband of WERA owner) if he would implement an attendence rule.  Something like you must attend at least 70% (i.e. 7 of 10) of the regional events(in at least one region) to be invited to the GNF for the Sportsman races.  There is already a points system in place, but for some of the classes, this doesn't always work out so well.

It never got implemented, so I've quit racing Sportsman & CCS events for Regional and National titles.  I'll show up when Suzuki's buying, but other than that, the GNF and ROC are typically a farce, especially when the pro's show up and walk away with the titles.  Again, if you just enjoy racing, then go.  If you're gonna get wrapped up about who won, then stay home.

-=-=-=-

So, now I'm a WERA National racer, at least on paper.  I attend mainly the National Endurance races.  I ride for 2 hours then go home.  I don't ride very fast for those two hours, but I would still be considered a "National Rider".

I would not like to see any rules imposed that state that I can not ride Sportsman/CCS Events, because I am not really not that fast.  Going the next step, up to the Pro ranks is where the line starts to blur for me.  There are riders that we all know that finish around 20th-25th in the AMA Superbike races, but they still compete in Sportsman and CCS races.  I don't think that they should be excluded, either.

So, I don't think rider exclusion is the answer, but can see where rewarding participation is.  But, all this does is make people say, "Do you want to win by attendence?" or "Why would you want to reduce the speed pool?!".

It's a no win situation.  Either you're the fastest at the finals, or you just enjoy the ride.

$0.02

[stickman]

That doesn't seem fair. I thought WERA/CCS was amatuer racing. Isn't AMA classified as Pro?

[GAMEDIC]

That doesn't seem fair. I thought WERA/CCS was amatuer racing. Isn't AMA classified as Pro?

Yes it is ...that is my whole point

[Mongo]

Where's the line between Amateur and Pro?  

The argument that Steve had about Lee - Lee wasn't running AMA at the time - so was he a Pro?  What about all the FUSA guys?  Are they Pro?  How about the guys that have run a couple of AMA rounds and have a full on AMA Superbike license, are they Pro?

Where do you draw that line?

And what's the point of proving you're the fastest of the slow guys?

[stickman]

Where do you draw the line? I don't know, that's your job :) But there should be some line drawn.

How about at the next level, which would be AMA. If you are good enough to qualify for AMA, you have moved beyond club racer status.

And it's not a matter of being the fastest of the slow, it's a matter of being the fastest among the guys at your level. Speed is relative, Opie and Acree are slow as shit compared to Rossi.

I understand why you allow those guys in, it makes WERA look good to have top names in the races, draws a good crowd. But it really isn't fair to have professionals racing against club guys.

[r6_philly]

The best thing I can think of is: ROC should not offer purses, and should not be a winner takes all event. National champion should be decided by a series of races. Also, someone who is not lets say top 5 in the regional standings should not be able to win the national championship.

We can take our regional points in a class, then devided by the events in that region, to determine the avg points for each race/event. Then add in the points earned at the ROC, whoever has the most points, win the championship. That would reward the most consistent finisher.

So if you finished 1st each time(and everytime) in your region, you will have 65 points. And you finish 2nd in the ROC, you will have 60 points, add them together you have 125 points.

So its like we are having 2 races, one based on the regular season, one is based on the ROC. If  you win ROC, you get the ROC plaque, then someone else may win the championship. This will weed out the show-up-once-and-win racers. If you don't race regular season, you can only get half of the score even if you win. and you will finish in the back in the championship.

What do you guys think?

[GAMEDIC]

The best thing I can think of is: ROC should not offer purses, and should not be a winner takes all event. National champion should be decided by a series of races. Also, someone who is not lets say top 5 in the regional standings should not be able to win the national championship.

We can take our regional points in a class, then devided by the events in that region, to determine the avg points for each race/event. Then add in the points earned at the ROC, whoever has the most points, win the championship. That would reward the most consistent finisher.

So if you finished 1st each time(and everytime) in your region, you will have 65 points. And you finish 2nd in the ROC, you will have 60 points, add them together you have 125 points.

So its like we are having 2 races, one based on the regular season, one is based on the ROC. If  you win ROC, you get the ROC plaque, then someone else may win the championship. This will weed out the show-up-once-and-win racers. If you don't race regular season, you can only get half of the score even if you win. and you will finish in the back in the championship.

What do you guys think?

I thnk it's a great idea i would be for  it 100%

[Mongo]

Where do you draw the line? I don't know, that's your job :) But there should be some line drawn.

How about at the next level, which would be AMA. If you are good enough to qualify for AMA, you have moved beyond club racer status.

And it's not a matter of being the fastest of the slow, it's a matter of being the fastest among the guys at your level. Speed is relative, Opie and Acree are slow as shit compared to Rossi.

I understand why you allow those guys in, it makes WERA look good to have top names in the races, draws a good crowd. But it really isn't fair to have professionals racing against club guys.

Actually we let them in because the are WERA racers, the have a license and race with us.  Most of them do so much more than once a year (Steve's example was about once class in particular, Lee had raced WERA all season long).

I have drawn the line for WERA - it's at the yellow pleate white plate division.  However you don't seem to like the line I drew so I'm asking where you would draw it.

Speed is relative, you are either the fastest rider on a particular class of equipment or you are not.  But you are still describing a setup where you limit the talent pool so that you are the fastest of the slow guys.  Which proves what?  That you went around in circles?  That's not racing.

[Mongo]

Philly - you don't like the olympics as a format for amateur sporting eveng championships?

Also - doesn't CCS have a National Points championship series already?  Called FUSA maybe?

[fourandsix]

It's a real simple fix , Let the Factory riders race but their finishing position doesn't count. If they are that good they will be in the lead anyway so who cares , 1st true non pro gets the win. I can remember when Harley brought out the sled of a superbike at Road America years ago and Chris Carr won the only race that a VR won. After being made to feel like a mope for winning the money at a local event with a factory bike i think he doanted his winnings to charity. Rapp could have pulled over , it's not like it is the spring event and he was testing for the AMA weekend.It is all about having some class.The sad truth is that CCS or WERA for that matter doesn't care about the average racer just how many paid entries they get, and by the way Carr also got smoked by a couple of local guys on ZX6R's that weekend, he could only beat the many NT650 hawks and the few old Ducatis.