Bimotas in LW SS...

Started by MACOP1104, July 23, 2010, 09:37:23 AM

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MACOP1104

Quote from: majicMARKer on September 30, 2010, 08:58:06 PM
. I am sure a good SS build could get some more-ram air possibly? If I remember correctly Ed Key's SS build produces 80hp. Check RRW page 82. I know of at least one SV that has $4K in the motor, undercut trans, balanced crank, milled heads and some other work I can't remember.
Just saying there is more that can be done. Building a Ducati anything isn't cheap.


I don't think undercut tranny and balanced crank are SS legal mods.  Ram air?  My bike is SS WERA legal which have a lot tighter SS rules.  No ram air, no slipper clutch, no Brembo master, no lightweight battery.  The WERA rulebook states if it's not listed as a legal mod, then you can't do it. 

roadracer162

That is one of the many differences of WERA to CCS. In CCS SS does not necessarily mean stock. I am addressing CCS rules and the use of that $32K. Ram air is allowed in SS that I know of, and yes there is a SS built SV with undercut tranny running in CCS as well as many I can only amigane. You can only know if it were to be torn down and the tech guy making the decision knows the difference. Do they just check bore and stroke of a motor or will they know the diffence between my stock or High comp pistons?
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

MACOP1104

Quote from: majicMARKer on October 01, 2010, 01:19:30 PM
That is one of the many differences of WERA to CCS. In CCS SS does not necessarily mean stock. I am addressing CCS rules and the use of that $32K. Ram air is allowed in SS that I know of, and yes there is a SS built SV with undercut tranny running in CCS as well as many I can only amigane. You can only know if it were to be torn down and the tech guy making the decision knows the difference. Do they just check bore and stroke of a motor or will they know the diffence between my stock or High comp pistons?

I can't understand the liberal rules of CCS.  I thought the idea of SS was to keep the costs down? 
As far as cheating goes, it happens and it always will.  If it gets to the point where I was putting up the money for a tear down.  I would be in the tech shed keeping an eye on things.  An aftermarket piston is real easy to spot.
I bought a SS legal motor last year from a racer and decided to have some work done to it.  My builder said the intake valves were unshrouded, Illegal for SS.  Luckily I have been using that motor for SBK the entire year. 
My 1st race this season I took a walk thru the pits and made some small talk with some SV racers.  One racer I talked to had a SS and a SBK SV.  I was familiar with his SBK because he posted his build on another forum.  I asked him how the ULWSB class is on his SS SV since his SBK had an overbore.  He told me he runs his SBK in ULWSB becuase everyone else with 2mm or 3mm pistons does......   whatever???

roadracer162

I guess you and I are a few that stick to strict letter of the rules.

CCS can be considered liberal, but come to think of it so is World SS.

I always thought that the lightweight classes were the inexpensive classes but I am sorely mistaken. Lightweight is considered the class where a beginning racer starts.

I started my sons on the FZR400 which is inexpensive and fun to ride. Tires last 4 weekends and you can use the older set for practice until there is no more rubber. The power is not overwhelming so many lessons can be learnt without the fear of a highside.

So you see changing the rules won't change a thing. Someone will always find a way to get by them anyway.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

George_Linhart

Quote from: majicMARKer on October 01, 2010, 06:48:18 PM
II always thought that the lightweight classes were the inexpensive classes but I am sorely mistaken. Lightweight is considered the class where a beginning racer starts.

Lets look at it the other way.  I submit that LWSB is the ideal builder class.  These are the only bikes where I can actually use and benefit from all of the Superbike modifications.   I can't nearly use the power of a stock liter bike - what motivation whould I have to building an unlimitd superbike?  It would not make me any faster.  However, I can get significant improvement in my laptiimes going from a LWSS to a LWSB build.  The better and more complete the build the better the lap times.

You want to start racing - LWSS is a fine place to begin and costs can be kept down.  Unfortunately, that 10 year old stock SV isn't raly going to be competitive in more than 1 class anymore and those LW guys who want to win in multiple classes have all built credible superbikes.

It isn't that CCS rules are right and WERA rules are wrong - they are just different.  Some prefer one to the other.  Nothing wrong with that.  I see Mongo's point on the rules.  The SV guys tend to be notoriously cheep and if he opens the rules too much he faces completely losing that crowd.  CCS on the other hand got an influx of Ducati and Buell riders who can't play in Mongo's playground because of his rules.  OK by me, as long as these same SV riders don't try and change the CCS rules that I enjoy.  If, however, Mongo opened up his rules and allowed the air-cooled Ducati Superbikes in the his LWSB class - I would come and play.  This said, lets be clear, I have no intention of ever running Supersport anything (too damn much cheating).

George

MACOP1104

Quote from: majicMARKer on October 01, 2010, 06:48:18 PM
I guess you and I are a few that stick to strict letter of the rules.

CCS can be considered liberal, but come to think of it so is World SS.

I always thought that the lightweight classes were the inexpensive classes but I am sorely mistaken. Lightweight is considered the class where a beginning racer starts.

I started my sons on the FZR400 which is inexpensive and fun to ride. Tires last 4 weekends and you can use the older set for practice until there is no more rubber. The power is not overwhelming so many lessons can be learnt without the fear of a highside.

So you see changing the rules won't change a thing. Someone will always find a way to get by them anyway.
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 02, 2010, 06:38:36 PM
Lets look at it the other way.  I submit that LWSB is the ideal builder class.  These are the only bikes where I can actually use and benefit from all of the Superbike modifications.   I can't nearly use the power of a stock liter bike - what motivation whould I have to building an unlimitd superbike?  It would not make me any faster.  However, I can get significant improvement in my laptiimes going from a LWSS to a LWSB build.  The better and more complete the build the better the lap times.

You want to start racing - LWSS is a fine place to begin and costs can be kept down.  Unfortunately, that 10 year old stock SV isn't raly going to be competitive in more than 1 class anymore and those LW guys who want to win in multiple classes have all built credible superbikes.

It isn't that CCS rules are right and WERA rules are wrong - they are just different.  Some prefer one to the other.  Nothing wrong with that.  I see Mongo's point on the rules.  The SV guys tend to be notoriously cheep and if he opens the rules too much he faces completely losing that crowd.  CCS on the other hand got an influx of Ducati and Buell riders who can't play in Mongo's playground because of his rules.  OK by me, as long as these same SV riders don't try and change the CCS rules that I enjoy.  If, however, Mongo opened up his rules and allowed the air-cooled Ducati Superbikes in the his LWSB class - I would come and play.  This said, lets be clear, I have no intention of ever running Supersport anything (too damn much cheating).

George

I love the LW classes.  I can get several weekends out of my tires and it's a great class to race.  I did my first WERA weekend this summer and I had a blast.  I'm not trying to turn this into a WERA vs CCS discussion but you are right, WERA rules are more friendly towards the SV and the air cooled 1000cc bikes have to stay supersport to race in WERA superbike.  But, WERA must be doing something right because their grids are usually bigger.   I guess Mongo thinks it's better to have a grid full of cheap riders on SVs that are still in production rather than smaller grids full of 1000cc air cooled superbikes that are no longer made.

George_Linhart

Quote from: MACOP1104 on October 02, 2010, 08:18:12 PM
I love the LW classes.  I can get several weekends out of my tires and it's a great class to race.  I did my first WERA weekend this summer and I had a blast.  I'm not trying to turn this into a WERA vs CCS discussion but you are right, WERA rules are more friendly towards the SV and the air cooled 1000cc bikes have to stay supersport to race in WERA superbike.  But, WERA must be doing something right because their grids are usually bigger.   I guess Mongo thinks it's better to have a grid full of cheap riders on SVs that are still in production rather than smaller grids full of 1000cc air cooled superbikes that are no longer made.

I personally don't know if the WERA LW grids are bigger than CCS or not.  It might be highly depenent on region and how much overlap there is at each specific track.  WERA just doesn't do a whole lot here in the Midwes and I've been running a pretty limited schedule the last 2 years so I don't really have any way to judge.  If somebody has number at tracks common to both (say VIR, Summit, NJMP) it cold be interesting to check.

But, you know, the funny thing is that it seems to me that since the demise of the SV cup the fastest SV guys are on 1st gen units, not the ones currently in production so your critisim rings a bit hollow to me.

I lso think that it is incorrect to say the Ducati air-cooled bike isn't around.  While the SS model is gone they have moved the motor into the Monster 1100S, Hypermotard and the Sport Classic lines.  I have seen a handfull of Monsters and Sport Classics on the grid.  Those chassis are at least as capable as the SS was, maybe better (the down side is less knowledge on set up).  I keep eyeing the Monster 1100S and it looks like a great starting point - if I didn't already have so much money and time invested in the develpment of my 1000SS I would not hesitate to jump to that platform.

There were a huge # of Buells and they will still be racing.  That actually might become the budget platform as long as we can find parts (or parts bikes).  Those are not going to disapear overnight just because Harley pulled the plug on Buell (just like the 1st gen SVs are sticking around.

All this said, one of the biggest issues we face is a lack of new and compelling product in the LW space.  I would absolutely love to see a new 700 cc liquid cooled sporting twin bike hit the stage by one of the major manufacturers - unfortunately I don't think it is going to happen.  How cool would it be to see a new bike with a purpose built and modern V-Twin motor rapped in a middleweight sportbike chassis, lightweight running gear and real brakes/suspension????  Wouldn't an update of the SV motor (starting as a 700 vs. a Japan market 400) in a GSXR chassis and running gear be awesome?  How about a downsized version of the RC51?  Maybe even a new Ducati 648 built off the 1198/848 line?  It probably wouldn't be any cheeper than the MW bike line up, but if built right it would be so much more fun and I wouldn't hesistate to buy....

Oh well, untill that new product comes out we all have to keep racing the current LW offerings and (hopefully) continuing to improve them though good use of aftermarket parts.

George

MACOP1104

The Aprilia Shiver is the only new design lightweight bike that's come out in a while.  Kawasaki took a stab at the SV market with the new Ninja 650 but it falls a bit short as a SS bike.  The nature of most lightweight bikes are entry level machines so the manufacturers use dated technology to keep costs down (damper rod forks, non adjustable shock, etc etc).  A modern lightweight bike with all the new bits would cost too much.  Why buy a lightweight bike with say 85hp that costs as much as a middleweight with 110hp? 
I'm in the South East so WERA is pretty strong here.  The WERA SE region had 15 races this year! 
With the lack of Suzuki contingency and Suzuki Cup money a lot of the fast SV guys cut back their programs.  These guys ran SS SVs because thats where Suzuki paid and the 2nd gen SS SV has a big advantage over the 1st gen SS SV (bigger stock cams).  The fastest superbike SVs are usually 1st gen because they are carb motors and the flat slides make a huge difference. A lot easier to bolt on a set of flat slides than adapt some SV1000 or 1000 Vstrom TBs to the 2nd gen bike.   I have a 2nd SV SBK and as a compromise I had the stock 39mm TBs punched out to 42mm.  It helps at high RPMs but no where near the rsults a set of 41mm flats will yield.

apriliaman

To the other mark I weighted my bike at the track when they have asra races.
My 1999 SV 650 FULL TANK  385     365 close to empty ,    moto-st had a 360 limit so my bike would be close if i raced it for them
MY 2005 DUC 1000DS FULL TANK 419 , 408 after gt lights race, would like to make it lighter if i had some extra $$$
MY 1988 FZR 400 FULL TANK 410  havent weighed with low gas
I dont have any  lightweight parts in them at all as you can see.
Winner of at least 50 CCS Lightweight Regional Championships
3 National Championships
Top 10 plate holder since 2006

roadracer162

Mark E,- Thanks for the info. That shows just how inaccurate the bathroom scale method is. Equally unbelievable is how heavy the little FZR weighs.

George- I can understand and appreciate that reasoning in it's entirety.
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

racer880

Having been racing 30 yrs or so with WERA,CCS & AMA and the Lightweight class since its inception on RDs ,RZs,EX and FZRs since the early 80s. I have seen alot of stuff. I came back last year to have fun and be competitive. I went to LWSS. I did not think from the start 1000cc and Bimotas should be legal. Yes we out ride them time to time. But in a real show down likw the ROC a stock SV is back of the pack. The SVs that are keeping up are bending the rules. Now if I want to be competitive next season I have to buy a 1000 or Bimota.These bikes should not be in LWSS.We used to have a class called Production (Proddy) Now SS is a superbike class.

Gino230

It's true that cheating is rampant in the LWSS class. I know because I'm not cheating and I'm getting motored by smaller bikes that are supposedly SS legal.

Tony, I think you and I (and possibly Patrick) are the only experts running truly legal LWSS bikes. I didn't bother protesting anyone at the ROC because when you are 3 seconds slower than the leaders, it's not the bike's fault. When I have improved my times and get beaten head to head by a cheater engine, I have and will protest again.

Or I could just take the plunge and build a Superbike, forget supersport.

Bimotas should not be an issue, none of the ones in our region are SS legal. Several of the moto corse bikes are over 115 HP at the rear wheel. $32K is just the starting point for most of them.

As for the SS debate, my bike when freshly built made 89 HP on the Dynojet with the airbox lid intact. The only mods are power commander, slip ons, K&N filter, high flow breather and 520 chain and sprockets. On the ASRA scales it weighed in at 405 pounds post race (about a gallon of fuel left). The only weight reduction I have done is the fairing bracket.  Yes, this means the 1000DS definitely has an advantage over the SV in Supersport, but the SV had the advantage over the Aprillia 250 and the Ducati 750 had the advantage over the Honda Hawk. The Honda Hawk edged out the Ninja 500....life marches on. Whatever new machine is introduced will no doubt be decried as a "cheater bike" and there will be further outrage. If you want to win at the expert level you probably have to compete on the latest greatest stuff....what else is new? I ran SuperTwins this weekend on my stock 996, probably a 70HP DIS-advantage but still had a good time.

On another note, George I would love to see some pics or specs on your 1000DS project- I love that kind of stuff!

CCS / ASRA EX # 23
2012 Ducati 848 / 1100 Conversion     2005 Ducati 749RS
2006 CCS Florida Thunderbike Champion (AM)
2008 CCS LW Supersport National Champion (EX) 2nd in 2011 and now  2012....damn you Mavros!