Amateur, Expert, what have you....

[Super Dave]

Ok, I'm working on some ideas for a really broad thought on licensing and all.

I'd really appreciate some input.  I'd like to get some thoughts, good or bad, on the whole idea.

This kind of started last year, and now I started it again.

I'd like to have a proposal for Kevin Elliott sooner rather than later.  

This is a link to it on the Rules page...

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action=display;num=1091400129

Please focus on the topic at hand.  If you have new rules ideas for other things...this is the time to put them together.

[Thorny]

How about a class with NO changes allowed to bikes except body work, all same cc bikes.

[MELK-MAN]

I have no experience with the pro level, but have made a few observations.. THe best riders should be able to collect cash when they can. Heck, as a "hobby" rider although expert, i dont feel unless i could ride at the level of the best why i should feel like a better rider, even a pro, takes contingency money in a race i happen to be in. Very few riders actually make money after all is said and done.. if that is all they do (race). Even if a "pro" picks up 3-5k on a mfg contingency weekend, they are spending thousands getting there. Then there are the weekends they come up short or god forbid, crash. Now they are spending whatever they may have won the weekend before (perhaps cherrypicking/sandbagging) fixing a bike..
Prime example this weekend at Moroso Speedway, West palm beach. Mike Barns in a YAM money race ($1,500 to win) crashes while in 2nd right in front of myself trying to pass Marco Martinez.. Mike is an AMA pro but i enjoyed racing with him (highlight of my short carrer thus far actually-holding him off/UP for a few laps)..
As a weekend warrior, i want the money as much as anyone but until i make the commitment and somehow have talent bestowed upon me, i wont complain if a pro comes and gives it a go to take the cash. He bent his "A" bike pretty good trying to win that $1,500...Was sorry to see it actually.
Good luck to Barney this weekend!

As far as AM riders getting a few bucks? why not. The tires are so damn expensive.. it has been shown that a good percentage of riders only race 2 years or so anyway. Why not have them, if able to finish top 5, be able to get a little support if they do thier part to promote the product. I wanted more as an AM rider.. now i want more as an Expert. I wont get it both ways i suppose

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

1. Novice:  Some recognition necessary if you do well.  Trophy or frameable certificate.  A win is a win, and if amateur is more limited than it is now, many racers might never get a trophy in their careers!
Also, There should be no limit to how long you stay novice.  Some riders could spend YEARS there, while others are good enough to almost start racing as an expert.  Don't throw anyone to the wolves before they can run with the pack!  As an example, if you can't crack a 1:20 at Blackhawk on a 600 - 1000cc bike, you're just in the way and not ready to move up.  People like that aren't slow on purpose, and shouldn't have to write beg letters to stay safe.    
This promotion thing needs to be addressed.  How about a three win rule?  Promote if you think you're ready, or after three wins if you're trying to be a sandbagging trophy whore.
No contingency or prize money.  That ought to get decent riders moving up as soon as possible.

2. Sportsman:  A stopover for aspiring heroes, and the destination class for duffers like me.  Contingency, trophies and championships, but no prize money.  The hungry ones will come and go, while the hobby racers will settle in for life.  A guy comes out of novice and beats guys like Edgar and me, it means something.  Now he can progress to the Purks and Jessies at the top.  Maybe he'll be back down a year later when he runs out of money or finds that his personal level of risk isn't expert level.

3. Expert:  The place to win money, and challenge yourself against the best the club has to offer.  Poaching pros welcome.  Better payouts for fewer, longer races.  Maybe qualifying?  Even if some of the purse money has to be lifted from the entry fees of the lower classes, this top class will add legitimacy to the whole program.  You know the crew who will race this class.

Also, no waffling.  Experts race expert, and Sportsmen race sportsman.  You don't need an expert finishing off his tires in a sportsman race, just to poach contingency dollars.  You're one or the other.  By the year?  By the weekend?  That would need to be decided.  Sportsman to expert upgrade at the rider's discretion, with approval from the race director.

These are my thoughts.  
K3

[Super Dave]

How about a class with NO changes allowed to bikes except body work, all same cc bikes.

Your call.  Write it up and get support.

If you have new rules ideas for other things...this is the time to put them together.

[Super Dave]

I
As far as AM riders getting a few bucks? why not. The tires are so damn expensive.. it has been shown that a good percentage of riders only race 2 years or so anyway. Why not have them, if able to finish top 5, be able to get a little support if they do thier part to promote the product. I wanted more as an AM rider.. now i want more as an Expert. I wont get it both ways i suppose

What would you ride in, Greg?

Sportsman?  You trying to be an up and comer?

Might be Pro Expert for you.  If you could finish in the top ten, it might pay.  Otherwise, maybe Sportsman Expert is for you.

There would be contingency in Sportsman Expert.  So, you'd get the tire money.

You're one or the other.  By the year?  By the weekend?  That would need to be decided.  Sportsman to expert upgrade at the rider's discretion, with approval from the race director.

It's going to be up to the rider and the race director/referree.  Really, what are you going to take with you if you go pro when you are a sportsman...nothing but you and the bike.  Points wouldn't transfer.  There wouldn't be any real benefit to bounce.  Really, the race director would make the decision if there is some Flip-Flopping.

This promotion thing needs to be addressed.  How about a three win rule?

Don't make it so complicated.

Who would like to stay an "amateur" under the new structure?  Limited selection of races, no contingency.  Think of it as a really extened riding school.  Yeah, some won't be there long.  Some will be there longer.  But, at some point, one becomes a safe racer.  That's what's really important.  At that point, the person is ready for Sportsman Expert.

I never won a race as a "novice" as we were called way back when.  I wrote my letter to become expert, not to stay amateur.

[Super Dave]

These ideas are best to be addressed on the thread that we're running with please.

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action= display;num=1091400129

[MELK-MAN]

Expert but not trying to be an upncommer really. At 36, i just like the regional club racing and am enjoying the new challenge expert racing offers. The occasional National event is VERY cool. I like getting better, and FUSA is another option of pro level isn't it?? That would be the next level up from my local club level expert racing. However, i dont want to travel and incurr all the expense of racing at the pro level (if i were to get to that level). Even FUSA or formula extreem involves alot of travel.
Also.. having multiple levels at the local/regional level would possibly reduce the grids even further wouldnt it?

[ekraft84]

Keep it simple.

Minimize classes and difficulty in switching between organizations.  Maximize grids, contingencies, competition and fan support.

And have an AMA supported SV series.  You'd have 40+ bikes in every race, I guarantee it.

(FWIW, I like the current Superstock rules that exist.  Changing only bodywork would be much further down the list than say suspension)

[Super Dave]

The current FUSA series is still expensive, too expensive, for most to consider.  There is no real working proving ground at the local level to build better foundations for "upandcomers".  You can't build any support or any money racing for the purses in Middleweight Grand Prix.  Who can afford travel?  A national series is nice, but is it really necessary?  Can certain events be just designated as part of a national series to crown a national champion?

Superstock?  AMA SV series?  Call the AMA.

But, again, where are you going to get good training to do that?  Racing for twentith place for twenty points at your local CCS race?  If there were a bit of $$ up for grabs, things might be a bit different.  A lot of guys go AMA racing unprepared for the qualifying, tire wear, etc.  

Additionally, lots of guys go do laps within track day programs trying to "gain" experience.  That'll get you so far...real competition will get you further.

[Scotty Ryan]

WELL DAVE I MAY BE IN THE AMATURE CLASS FOR THE NEXT FEW RACES BUT AT THE START OF NEXT YEAR I'M SURE THAT I WILL BE MOVED UP TO EXPERT. I WILL ALSO BE ON THE 600 ONLY, VS RIDING THE SV AND THE 600. IF YOUR PROPOSAL WERE TO TAKE EFFECT I WOULD RIDE IN THE EXPERT SPORTSMAN CLASS FOR A FEW WEEKENDS TO GET MY FEET WET IN THE EXPERT RANKS,BUT I WOULD WANT TO MOVE UP TO THE PRO EXPERT SO THAT I COULD HAVE A SHOT AT MAKING SOME OF MY MONEY BACK INSTEAD OF JUST DISHING IT OUT LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW. WE ALL KNOW THAT IT IS ALWAYS NICE TO RECOUPE CASH FOR THE NEXT WEEKEND. I DO HAVE ONE QUESTION THOUGH, I'M SURE THERE ARE A FEW OTHER GUYS THAT WOULD BE INTERESTED IN GETTING AN "AMA" LICENSE,INCLUDING MYSELF -UNDER THE CURRENT RULES YOU HAVE TO GET I THINK 100 "AMA" EXPERT POINTS IN A SEASON ALONG WITH A FEW OTHER THINGS LIKE A CCS OFFICAL SIGNING OFF ON YOUR PAPERWORK AND A LIST OF YOU FINISHES BEFORE THEY WILL ISSUE YOU A LICENSE. NOW I KNOW THAT IF YOU WERE TO COMPARE "WERA'S" POINTS STRUCTURE TO "CCS'S" YOU GET MORE "AMA" POINTS FOR A WIN IN A "WERA" RACE THEN YOU DO IN A "CCS" RACE. I GUESS MY QUESTION TURNED INTO MORE OF A COMMENT, WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT CCS WOULD ALSO HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE "AMA" WOULD BE WILLING TO DO. EITHER WAY I AM BEHIND THIS MOVEMENT 100%!!!  :)

[motomadness]

Why not have:
- Amateur - one championship, short races, certificates for top 10 (geared toward new racers and track days guys who want to test their skills without the huge cost), promotion after 5 rounds within a single season and completion of one advanced race school
=> races include 1 race for each wt class (gp rules), and one multi-wt class gt race (the premier amateur race - trophy top 3)
=> no points, except in the premiere gt class
- Expert Sportsman - multiple championships, current race length, contingency, trophy/plaque for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, no madatory promotion
=> races include supersport and superbike/gp for each wt class, and two gt races (one mw, one ultd)
=> points for the top 15 riders only, scale similar to FIM
- Expert Pro - money, longer races, deeper purse, expectation of pit presentation (uniforms, banners, etc.)
=> races include AMA/FUSA-like classes, plus ltwt supersport and superbike/gp gt classes
=> points based on AMA Expert qualifying points, except points can still be scored if there are less than 16 racers.  This would make it obvious to CCS and the racer if you are quallified to run the AMA based on the AMA's rules.

___

- Points for an AMA license would come from the Expert Pro classes only.
- Expert Sportsman can race Expert Pro races after earning a certain number of Expert Sportsman points (except for ltwt racers, whom would be allowed to run the ltwt EP races because of current AM/EX race structure), but cannot participate in more than 2 Expert Pro races in a weekend.  After more than 2 Expert Pro races in a weekend, you must be promoted to  Expert Pro full-time.  This would allow Expert Sportsman time to decide for themselves whether they are ready to step up to the "fast" ranks, kind of like testing the waters several times a season before making the step.

I don't think this limits the EP to fewer opportunities simply because of the greater benefits garnered from the EP competition and purse.  I would probably hold most of the EP races on Sunday, with extra testing and qualifying available for EP's on Saturday.  I would also have premiere ES and AM races on Sunday to keep them around for the "show".  If you ever wrote a script that described one of our regional race weekends, the plot would be boring - practice, followed by racing, followed by more practice, followed by more racing - no crescendo/climax.  AMA weekends and FUSA weekends have a climax, fan expectation, something to draw them into staying around for the finale.

Furthermore, if the total number of ES classes are too large, run the mw and ultd classes in one race, one wave for each wt.  Maybe in this case you could even give a certificate for overall winner and top 3 simply for recognistion.