Amateur, Expert, what have you....

[Super Dave]

Scott, yeah, I see where you're comin' from.

Points for AMA license...WERA vs CCS and everyone else...that's an agreement between WERA and the AMA.  The racing organization that we're in was called AMA/CCS until about the middle of 1994...the rest is a long story.  The points structure is just a way for the AMA to continually JAB at other organizations that don't bow to their "superiority"...

This structure might really help you... you want to move up and really be challenged, and potentially rewarded.  I'd like the reward with the challenge...even in my "declining years..."   8)  Some may not want that.  So, Sportsman Expert would still allow those riders to have the real opportunity to race for some kind of value...championships, fun, friends...

Sean, I like where you're going...

Good.

Don't like the completion of a racing school....and I try to teach them.  There are no "standards" for racing schools.  Some riders may never have the opportunity to get to one...and some riders may not need one to be competitive.

As for a mandatory bump after five rounds...

I've worked with riders that have put a bike at the top of the heap on their first weekend racing...not because there was little competition or they had a better bike...And I've seen riders that after two years of regular racing...they just don't get it...They end up being more concerned about the people passing them and where they are in relationship to the people lapping them.  With some experience, they might get it...but some never will.  Give them a really good opportunity to try.  

The "premier" amatuer race is intriging.  Not sure if I like points as it starts to make it something that it's not...a championship based on competition when the real focus should be on very basic learning of safety, riding, and  set up.

I like the race, but not the points.

Expert Sportsman...I like the GT thing, but I'd like one for the lightweights too...how many classes to we really have now?

You'd either be Expert Sportsman or Expert Pro...You wouldn't go to from amateur to Expert Pro without once racing as Expert Sportsman.

I agree that you'd want some of the premier classes of each racing category on Sunday.  Got to show everyone what it looks like at speed.  

[motomadness]

SuperDave,

I was thinking the ltwt racer could race the Expert Pro lt classes because the range of the vehicle speeds/lap times.  Currently, the field of fast amateur and expert ltwt racers are pretty close, which could lead to some fun racing at the EP level.  I am open to more input from presumed ES lt wt racers.  How many classes would folks like?  Let's make fitness a more prominent factor in who wins a race.  Longer gt races at every level would draw this out more.

The points for the amateur gt was merely to draw the new guys into regularly participating

[bsavoie]

I like some of the ideas, especially the ones with the Pro classes.  The thing is, I don't really see how they are necessary.  We already have our "Pro" class--FUSA.  I am that exact racer you guys are talking about, the guy that wants to test the waters at a pro level, well, I did, at Barber.  It was fun and I learned a lot.  I don't see were the "pro" class has to be at every single club event, however.  In my opinion, it would look real good on paper, until the grids were made and the was four people in each one. I am not trying to snuff your opinions, I just think that you are talking about a MAJOR restructuring in the way every event is run (not that that is always a bad idea, either).

Another thing to consider is the guy like me.  I am like most other club racers, in that I have a very limited budget, have only one racebike, and like CCS because I get to enter it in 4 to 5 classes where I can fairly compete.  That is honestly why I chose CCS over WERA, more classes.  Yes, fewer classes with longer races could be okay, but for the small guy with one bike, a simple lowside with a broken footpeg can ruin your whole weekend, because you could only enter one or two classes.

Lastly, I fully agree with everyone one the sandbagging issue, however.  My best friend Sean races an SV.  This past race at Barber was only his third time on the track racing.  I am not saying that he deserves to win, because hey, don't we all?  But some of the guys on the podium in those amatuer events were no amatuers.  One guy was saying how he raced WERA last year and won their amatuer LW championship.  And this is my point, limiting the amount of races a guy can enter in CCS amatuer won't solve anything, because guys like that switch organizations every year.  Next year he will probably go back to WERA and petition to stay amatuer because he "took the year off" when actually he was racing CCS. WERA, CCS, and other organizations need to look harder at a persons credentials and talk to each other to find out how one guy performed in the other organization.  That is the way I best see solving this sandbagging issue.

Very Respectfully,
Barry Savoie #197 ex

[motomadness]

I think this should be a Blackhawk Farms action first for experimental purposes, maybe not all of the rounds either.  

[Super Dave]

Currently, the field of fast amateur and expert ltwt racers are pretty close, which could lead to some fun racing at the EP level.

The field of the top middleweight and heavyweight experts aren't too far ahead of the top amateurs either.  But the little bit is enough.  

If you mix them, there is no point in separating them.  

[Super Dave]

I think this should be a Blackhawk Farms action first for experimental purposes, maybe not all of the rounds either.  

You'd have to do a whole region and the regions that race within that system or you'd have chaos.

[Super Dave]

 We already have our "Pro" class--FUSA.  I am that exact racer you guys are talking about, the guy that wants to test the waters at a pro level, well, I did, at Barber.  It was fun and I learned a lot.  I don't see were the "pro" class has to be at every single club event, however.  In my opinion, it would look real good on paper, until the grids were made and the was four people in each one. I am not trying to snuff your opinions, I just think that you are talking about a MAJOR restructuring in the way every event is run (not that that is always a bad idea, either).

Ok, good...bad feedback...

The exclusivity of having only eight "pro" races competing during fifty events nation wide doesn't do much for the series on either side.  

Only a very select few people can even consider going to most of the events, even though it is only eight races.  If we have 5000 plus licensed racers in CCS, only about thirty maybe are able to contest most of that season.  

The pay is poor.  It was better.  There is little foundation at the real grass roots local level to prepare potential pro riders.  Really, if you have an expert license, you're "pro".  You only need points and you can get an AMA "pro" license...again, it's strictly nomenclature.  

Would you learn more if the playing field was a bit different every week at your local races?  We've got five races at Blackhawk.  We had some extra money for a few purse races and guys were really taking the opportunity to step up to try and take it.

Loudon has it good with such a heavily competitive area.  Greenwood, Woods, and others.

WSMC seems to have their own independent program with a location that makes them prime for trying to breed some new stars, and keeping older ones racing.

As for grids...there was more than four guys for each of the FUSA races at Barber, Daytona, Summit, RA, etc...  If you put out some money, someone is going to try and take it.  I wouldn't let it go without a fight.

Another thing to consider is the guy like me.  I am like most other club racers, in that I have a very limited budget, have only one racebike, and like CCS because I get to enter it in 4 to 5 classes where I can fairly compete.  That is honestly why I chose CCS over WERA, more classes.  Yes, fewer classes with longer races could be okay, but for the small guy with one bike, a simple lowside with a broken footpeg can ruin your whole weekend, because you could only enter one or two classes.

This is exactly what we're talking about.  

You're on a limited budget, you like a good number of races.

What pro race did you do at Barber?

Did you do other CCS races?

I have a very limited budget.  Same deal.  Generally, this is everyone.  We're teetering on the edge of disaster.  

Would it be worth the opportunity for payback?  Has to be an individual question.  For me, yeah, given the opportunity, I'd have to try to race a money race.  That's the price of admision.  The alternative is to race for "points"...those are nice for bragging, but seldom in my career have points really mattered to potential sponsors.  What mattered to them was me trying my best and working hard at what I did.  The points came with the territory.

[Super Dave]

Lastly, I fully agree with everyone one the sandbagging issue, however.  My best friend Sean races an SV.  This past race at Barber was only his third time on the track racing.  I am not saying that he deserves to win, because hey, don't we all?  But some of the guys on the podium in those amatuer events were no amatuers.  One guy was saying how he raced WERA last year and won their amatuer LW championship.  And this is my point, limiting the amount of races a guy can enter in CCS amatuer won't solve anything, because guys like that switch organizations every year.  Next year he will probably go back to WERA and petition to stay amatuer because he "took the year off" when actually he was racing CCS. WERA, CCS, and other organizations need to look harder at a persons credentials and talk to each other to find out how one guy performed in the other organization.  That is the way I best see solving this sandbagging issue.

There will never be a data base to check whether a rider raced once place or another.  Organizations schedule on top of each other, etc.  

However if the structure is different, winning a Expert Sportsman race wouldn't be a cake walk.  And there would be no monetary or contingency reward for sandbagging as an amateur.

CCS got off the ground in 1984 by paying experts a purse in all classes.  Somewhere around 1986 or 1987 that stopped...might have been in 1988, I can't say exactly.  The road racers from that era represented some of the poorest rags to riches riders in history.  Russell didn't have the give of much...but he rode and rode and rode.  James, Polen.

Purses have diminished and now some of the top riders can get someplace by buying B level rides.  That's nice and all, but that isn't really a privateer effort in my eyes.  

So, who's gonna have a chance.

A restructuring might allow some to make a name for themselves at the local Pro Expert level.  Some will never attain that level, but they will have fun.  Some pro experts might never make enough money to really pay for racing, but they might some value in continuing try to do so rather than just walking away.

More thoughts?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

You're sure right about your proposal not making expert sportsman a cake walk.  Look at how the fast amateurs lap through the expert field now off a two wave start.  All those talented beginners and salty long-termers would be mixing it up on a heads-up basis.  This proposal would make it harder for a guy like me to win, not easier.
That doesn't bother me, though.  Nothing is worse than the way things go now.  Four guys, all with AMA experience and me line up.  The flag waves, they're gone.  I ride to the finish and collect my fifth place trophy.  Oooooh!  Fun!  Not.
When I was a beginning amateur on really uncompetitive equipment, I could always find a RACE for 19th place.  Then I could find a RACE for 10th.  Finally, it was a RACE for first through fifth.  Then I went expert.
In two years, I've had ONE really good race.  It's just not worth racing in CCS any more the way things are going.  Personally, I want to get an SV.  (Need bales of money to fall from the sky)  There are so damn many of those things out there every weekend that I'm almost gauranteed to have a RACE, be it for first or fifteenth.

[Super Dave]

Well, racing isn't supposed to be a cake walk, now is it?

C O M P E T I T I O N

That's what it is.

Salty veterens?  Do you go for points or cash?  I can tell you in a heart beat that Ed Key is going for Cash.  Edgar Dorn?  I think cash.  Lacy?  Cash.  I'd put more effort into the H1 with cash available.

Here's one...

Stumpy where's Ryan?  Ryan Johnson is a good rider and he currently races amateur.  Hey, what would you expect?  He's putting in a good effort...might not be buying all the fuel to get the Stumpy mobile to the races, but I recognize the emotional effort he's puttin' in.

So, he's a fast amateur.  Now, he has the opportunity to race in Expert Sportsman for points and all that good stuff....or do you jump into the Pro Expert stuff early trying to gain more experience and maybe some cash.  

K3, would you have been the other side?  You try Pro Expert and find that the efforts of regular life and a new bike are beyond your reasonable emotional and financial expectations.  Racing in Expert Sportsman might be a better way to go.

If you're a fifty-some year old guy like Roger Hendricks, I know that you're gonna do Pro Expert.

Should we make a list of people?

I'm in for Pro Expert.

[StumpysWife]

Stumpy...he'd be pro-expert.  What we're putting together for next year wouldn't make sense anywhere else--more on this at a later date.  

Johnson...I think he could be a competitive pro-expert next year, too, even though this is his first year racing...but is the budget there?  I don't know.

My opinion is let's not re-invent the wheel here.  What are the methods used in motocross?  I thought they had a three-tier system.  I could have drempt that, though.

And, let's keep finding ways to increase the purses--if not to win $, but to increase the participants!  I never thought about it, but now I have some ideas I'm going to toss around with a certain sponsor of ours who's looking to break into the motorcycle market.  

New purse=bigger grids.  I don't think this was a coincidence in MWGP, MWSB or HWSS last Blackhawk.  

[Super Dave]

Spectators come to see races.

Racers race with a little more enthusiasm when there's cash up for grabs.

I competed in the MZ Skorpion Cup National Championship in 1998.  Stock MZ's...we could change the chain and sprockets, fork oil, tires, brake pads, and put on fiberglass bodywork.  That was it.  Paid good money too...especially when they only make 42HP so you only use two sets of tires during the year....

Anyway, we were the race of the day.  Racers and spectators (we had them at AHRMA events with no problems and they have lower entry fees and licensing fees) would line up to see who was going to win.  

At the last Blackhawk there were about 570 people that lined up to race.  I know that I didn't do one race that I had entered...I think that Bill told me that we had 640 and some odd entries total...  Given that each rider enters about four races, that's 140 plus riders.

319 starters were Experts

240 starters plus (HWSS numbers were missing) amateurs

3 starters in the combined 125 GP

70 riders that started the traditional purse races.  GT races were a bit low given the rain that we had.  Potentially, there would have been more starters in those classes on Saturday and overall then.

There were 88 additional starters for the four extra money races.  Pretty much half.

Eight classes of eighteen (or nineteen if you want to count the 125 GP) we're accounting for almost half of the expert field.



MX - usually AMA sanctioned, and they have three tradtional tiers - A, B, C.