ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT @ NJMP TBOLT

[mwsportsimaging]

My experience with CCS (kevin) is that they went to the school of major league baseball umpires.  They are always right, and if they are wrong, that is part of the game and you just have to live with it.  They believe that anything less would challange their authority and make every decision they make subject to debate.  I can see both sides, but it sucks when its you getting screwed!

[tstruyk]

Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do?  What is a reasonable solution?  I dont know that there is one.  The double checker should be your focus.  i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue.  Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors.  Never a 'judgement' call.  I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.   

[race712]

In my limited experience with CCS protests - even if they are already aware of a flagging issue they will not address it without a written protest and the corresponding fee.  

I understand why the "race results are final' policy is there, as well as the 30 minute limit to protest - but the actual implementation stinks.  With the half-assed way results are posted (and often not announced) anyone seriously chasing championships almost needs to have a gopher semi-dedicated to verifying the postings and being prepared to start the protest.

I've heard the "it's only club racing" comment too, word for word, and bet I know who said it.  What they don't get is that if most of us weren't "type A" about this sport we wouldn't be out there in the first place.

[SVbadguy]

3.4.7

C. Should the checkered flag be displayed prior to the published or announced race distance or time, the race will be considered com-plete. For example, should the checkered flag be displayed on lap four of a five-lap race, the race would be considered complete.  Should the checkered flag be displayed beyond the published race distance, the results will be determined by positions at the completion of the published race distance. For example, if a five lap race were run for six laps, the results would be based upon position at the end of lap five.

Maybe they can have some procedure instituted, like having a 2nd offical being required to concur or the jump start call by the 1st offical or something. And for goodness sake !

This is what's required for cornerworkers to report a rider for passing under a waving yellow, so it only makes sense.

throw the green flag already! This holding us on the line, like it builds anticipation or something is getting old. Many of us do more than a few races, and the sadistic approach of holding us is hard on bikes, gets people pissed off, etc. Turn the 1 board, and throw the flag already .

Really!  In the GTU as long as we were waiting for the flag I thought something happened at the back of the grid and the 1-board would go up again.

[tstruyk]

regarding the jump start..

10.10 NON-ACCEPTABLE PROTESTS - Protests shall not be accepted on decisions of
officials with respect to the interpretation of the rules as they pertain to race procedures. Such decisions
include, but are not limited to, the line up of the motorcycles, the start of the race, the control
of the motorcycles, the election to stop or delay a race, the position of motorcycles on restarts, and
the assessment of lap or stop & go penalties.

not protestable.

and regarding the double checker...

10.3 PROTEST TIME PERIOD - All protests must be delivered, in writing, to an official within the
time limits outlined below. Protests requiring a fee must be accompanied with the appropriate funding
in cash or certified check.
10.3.1 Protests must be delivered within 30 minute of posting of the race results.
Protests will not be considered after the 30-minute period has elapsed and results
will be considered final. Once final results are submitted for points updates, no
changes can be made to results or points for that event.

it was however protestable...

10.5 SCORING PROTEST - Scoring protests must be made in writing and accompanied by a
$25.00 protest fee. Scoring protests do not need rule book references.
10.5.1 Should a scoring protest be upheld, the fee will be returned to the protesting rider.
10.5.2 Should a scoring protest be denied, Championship Cup Series will retain the fee.


chalk it up to experience, not to go all G.I. JOE on ya, but now ya know... and knowing is half the battle! 

[RollieManollie]

WERA racers here running with CCS for the first time certainly are not getting a good impression. 

Definitely not impressed by over the weekend. From an announcing aspect, tech inspectors, race officials and the general paddock attitude.  From what I have heard it wasn't all CCS officials or workers to their benefit if that is true.   

This is just my opinion and I know everyone has one.  I could go into a few stories or incidents but this isn't the place for it.  I was so frustrated after race 3 I basically quit the rest of the day mentally.  I'll probably do one more event with CCS for my final decision.  Hopefully they'll get some things worked out with the NJMP folks who help run the event. 

After a few incidents the one that I find most amusing is when I went to grid up there was a person in my grid spot.  I went beside him screwing the guy behind me for a good launch.  When I approached a race official after the race and asked what to do if that happens again because no grid marshals are checking everyones spots.  His reply was "go to the left or right of that person."  My response was " Good, so i guess if no one is checking I could just go to row 1 next time?"

Again, overall from what I read and hear about CCS this is not the norm and I don't want to pass judgement the first time so suddenly. 

[paulsbk]

To my understanding it was NJMP - with CCS backing..

I understand from different sources that NJMP wanted to have there hourly TD CW's working the corners. Which most of them have limited experience in racing events. I know firsthand because I have worked for CCS and the AMA there and there experience is grammar school like.. it'll take time for them to come up to speed.. however at whose expense??

Was it CCS Staffers, or NJMP people?  I am completely unclear about anything that happened this weekend, how involved was NJMP in running this event?  Beyond the 200 people on the security staff, which I'm guessing was responsible for the ridiculous gate fee......

[drew231506]

Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do?  What is a reasonable solution?  I dont know that there is one.  The double checker should be your focus.  i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue.  Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors.  Never a 'judgement' call.  I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.   

I dont give a shit if it's considered "protestable" or not.  The complaints were valid and should have been brought to their attention.  How does the entire front row jump start?  What do I expect them to do you ask?  Well if the guy running CCS can't make it right, which I'm sure he could have then I atleast expect CCS to review the video and hold whomever made the call ACCOUNTABLE.  I also expect them to review their entire procedure, how the call is made, who makes it, how they are trained, who trained them...etc.

Kevin said he would take care of it.  So we have to take his word on that.  If the person was held accountable, if they have two people making the call now...etc then I guess I can accept that.  We just took one for the team.

[R1Racer99]

The person throwing the green flag clearly didn't understand how to do it. It looks like they think it's like that show Pinks where he raises his arms and drops them, but to do that with a flag, you need to have the flag wrapped in your hand or else you're showing green. I think it's pretty obvious that you should start the flag-waving from the top to avoid that kind of problem. Too bad for the front guys.

[tstruyk]

I dont give a shit if it's considered "protestable" or not.

If you want results changed you should, if you just want the problem resolved... well, didnt Kevin say he would take care of it?  you sound angry!  ::)

The complaints were valid and should have been brought to their attention.

Which apparently several people did, and it sounds like he agreed that they dropped the ball on this one.

What do I expect them to do you ask?  Well if the guy running CCS can't make it right, which I'm sure he could have then I atleast expect CCS to review the video and hold whomever made the call ACCOUNTABLE.

I ask you again, HOW could they have made it right.  If you are sure he could have... or better yet, if you were in his shoes. How could YOU have made it right?  its a penalty that's been enforced during a race.  I'm not saying its right or wrong, but I think your gettin all bent outta shape wanting something fixed that cant be fixed.

I also expect them to review their entire procedure, how the call is made, who makes it, how they are trained, who trained them...etc. 

reasonable request, but like you said...

Kevin said he would take care of it.  So we have to take his word on that.  If the person was held accountable, if they have two people making the call now...etc then I guess I can accept that.  We just took one for the team.

one last thing... how exactly do you "hold someone accountable" for something like this? (either the jump start or the double checker)  I'm not being a smart ass I really am curious how you feel "justice will have been served"  regarding the "accountablilty" factor.  Most folks at a race weekend if coming from outta town barely make enough to cover expenses... so docking their pay wouldn't really be an option.  I guess we could always take em out back and  ... or maybe a good tongue lashing (and not in a good "Las Vegas" kinda way) would do the trick... my guess is it was an honest mistake and for a first round at a new facility with a new staff... i dunno I guess I just have more patience then most.

[GODZiLLA]

Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do?  What is a reasonable solution?  I dont know that there is one.  The double checker should be your focus.  i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue.  Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors.  Never a 'judgement' call.  I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.   

My fault, let me try to make this more clear.

We originally went straight to results and officials, because we had thought we pulled in a lap early. On the results, it showed the front runners had only completed 6 laps, where the rest of the race finished 7. We had thought it was because of the double checkered, but once the race director came down, he said the front line was all penalized a lap because of the jumped start.

So even after the race director admitted to the fact that there was a double checkered, this shows that they made an error, and then I guess hoped no one would notice? Do we really need to protest against that? You don't see why they should man up for something they fucked up on, without someone having to point it out, even if they said that they did it.

Now, as far as the false start issue, if going by your rules, pretty much everything about the start from the where the racer is grid'd to when he starts is non protestable. We had an issue at CMP where a racer, Sean Cassell was supposedly grid'd wrong, they penalized him a lap and posted results taking away his 1st place. The issue was, the first grid they posted that morning put him in one grid spot, and they later posted another grid moving him to another grid spot. He didn't have to write down anything, he just went to race control, told them what they did. They said okay, revised the results and he got his 1st place back.

I understand you're saying there are procedures to follow, I can see that if they made a mistake and didn't catch, that there has to be a proper protest. But if the race director himself says that there was a double checkered, do we really need to correct them? They already know the fuck up, why can't they man up to the mistake and fix it? ..that makes no sense to me.

[MELK-MAN]

The person throwing the green flag clearly didn't understand how to do it. It looks like they think it's like that show Pinks where he raises his arms and drops them, but to do that with a flag, you need to have the flag wrapped in your hand or else you're showing green. I think it's pretty obvious that you should start the flag-waving from the top to avoid that kind of problem. Too bad for the front guys.

are you kidding! I sure I would have gone postal on someone had this been what was going on.. RASING the green to THEN drop it?? !! Tell me that really wasn't what was going on. Im surprized there were not more jump starts with riders launching when the green would be raised prior to the "real" green throw.