Proposed rule change: Gridding by points (revisited)

[hernan52]

On March 28, 2007 Dave Rosno posted a proposal to modify Rule 3.4.2 (Series Gridding Procedures)
I believe that Dave's proposal is good business for CCS and would be a great improvement to the existing system, especially from the safety point of view.

A good discussion developed based on his original post. See thread: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07  (Read 2741 times)

One of the concerns expressed by some riders was that the proposal came AFTER many of them had already submitted pre-entry dollars.  This situation could be avoided for next season if the rule is changed prior to December 2009.

There were also some concerns about combined events and/or brand contingency ones which could be addressed by making specific  event exceptions.

I strongly support Dave's proposal for the 2010 season.

Hernan
CCS#619


Dave's Proposal

Current rule:

3.4.2 - CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded in order of entry for CCS Sprint Events.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)


Proposed Rule Change

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class points standings, post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has points in multiple regions, the highest point standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening regional events by order of entry.

Proposal - Version MkII

3.4.2 CCS Series Gridding Procedures
A. Unless otherwise stated, riders will be gridded pre entered riders first by most current regional class standings with host region riders first, other region riders at random; post entered riders by order of entry.  If a rider has class standings in multiple regions, the highest class standing will be used.  (Note:  CCS affiliates may use different grid order procedures.  Check with the local organization for specific information on gridding.)
     i.  Riders will be gridded for opening region events by order of entry only.

[Eric Kelcher]

Here is info on the review from last year. I would suggest new bit of information to make such a radical change during the current economy especially considering that grids are down with a grid by points system.

Upon review of requests for changes to grid procedure,  one theme stood out, that griding by points was rewarding the loyal customer. The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a "contingency hunter" only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

Also in response to the request to grid by points, a comparison was made to other organizations that do grid by points and everywhere there was head to head competition within that geographical area entry date was preferred, by 45% more entries for entry date to points. Now granted there are differences other than just griding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than other organizations in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US road racing.

Other common comment was regarding safety because the "faster" riders may have to start in the back.  Excuse me while I toss this out for your consideration,  now we need everyone to bring their time slip from the drag strip indicating their reaction time and we grid that way or 60 foot times or ¼ mile times? Absurd, yes, this is not bracket racing, but this would be the only way to accurately judge how quick someone is going to start a race to make it safer. Since all riders start at a dead stop and are on similar machines, the number of points scored are irrelevant to safety.

So then we looked at other options, heat races or qualifying, which would require the reduction of race classes by 1/2 and a double entry fees for the same amount of race time, the increase in entry fees nixed this one. (Mainly because comments from riders about increased fees associated with this for tires and the rush to front in limited time.)

Now granted there are differences other than just gridding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than competition in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US roadracing.


FYI LRRS went to grids by entry for 2009 season, comparsion of % change from 2008 to 2009 vs other regions will be interesting.

[Super Dave]

The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a "contingency hunter" only races  and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.

That is a very skewed scenario.

How about a rider that does seven races and finishes fourth every time?  He'd be ahead of that other guy that had two wins in two races.  How about the regular regional racer that won the other seven racers that the contingency hunter didn't attend?  Is it reasonable that he or she would be at the front if they pre entered?

[mwsportsimaging]

Is griding by practice session lap times completly out of the question?

[Super Dave]

Is griding by practice session lap times completly out of the question?

Most likely, yes. 

Multiple bikes, multiple classes, riders on different bikes. 

Just to make an example, there are only so many transmitters.  Riders with multiple bikes have only that single transmitter.  There isn't a way to knowingly separate the times.  Or even imagine issues with rain in one session where a rider that is on a middle weight bike riding in multiple classes is trying to "qualify" against a rider that is in another session that is dry. 

It would be nice, but it doesn't reward a good, regular CCS racer.  That's the point of gridding by points:  reward the regular regional racer even if he's not finishing up front. 

[Gixxerblade]

I just feel lucky to be out there. Makes no difference to me.

[HAWK]

If the point is to reward the "regular racer" then what is wrong with the pre-entry system. They help CCS to deal with the costs of putting on the season by giving them the upfront money to put on the weekend. Take away the reward for preentry and CCS will not see any money until race day and will most likely lose entrants due to weather watching.

If you want to grid by qualification then why not use the riders PI. This would not be skewwed by number of races and is a relativly good indication of the riders finishing position.

[Noidly1]

I'm with Dave and Paul on this one.
Grid pre-entries first by PI, then the rest after by entry time.

The only problem I see with going by PI is that some racers, like myself, that have good lap times but crash out or have mechanicals that kill their PI.

As far as gridding by practice times, that shouldn't be a problem because we practice in our perspective group, however if ther is a time when officials decide to have open practice sessions, then all that goes out the window.

[George_Linhart]

If the point is to reward the "regular racer" then what is wrong with the pre-entry system. They help CCS to deal with the costs of putting on the season by giving them the upfront money to put on the weekend. Take away the reward for preentry and CCS will not see any money until race day and will most likely lose entrants due to weather watching.

If you want to grid by qualification then why not use the riders PI. This would not be skewwed by number of races and is a relativly good indication of the riders finishing position.

I've got to agree with Hawk.  If I choose not to pre-enter, or if the situation makes pre-entry not a viable option (budgetary, work or family issues) then it is my responsibility to safely pass anyone gridded ahead of me at the start of a race.  I can see where the complaints come from, but no system is perfect and it just comes down to what imperfect system the series decides to use.

George

[Noidly1]

I've got to agree with Hawk.  If I choose not to pre-enter, or if the situation makes pre-entry not a viable option (budgetary, work or family issues) then it is my responsibility to safely pass anyone gridded ahead of me at the start of a race.  I can see where the complaints come from, but no system is perfect and it just comes down to what imperfect system the series decides to use.

George

Agreed...

[MUZ720]

LRRS did a points system this year and it worked well! Paid to enter allot of classes as it was total points overall,  not just for  the class entered. Grids where down from last year here also.   So pre-entery was to save a few bucks for myself as I only do one or two races a weekend.  I think it was a fair system rewarding not only the fast guys but racers that race allot.

[eboos]

I agree. The Loudon Road Race Series gridded by points this year. At first, I thought that was going to be a problem since I am only able to do 2 races per weekend, and I had to take a chunk of the season off, but I found no trouble getting through an extra row. It actually worked out better since I needed greater flexability this season and coudln't commit to every event.

There were problems at first though. Improper grid assignments and other entry errors, but things smoothed out quickly as the season went on.