848 legal for middleweight supersport?

[LilJayRR]

I think they keep track of the ASRA and CCS lap records seperate for each track. So you could have two lap records, one for a CCS race and one for a ASRA race at each track.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I mentioned Power to Weight Ratio (PWR) earlier in this topic and how a heavier rider is actually a better rider than a lighter rider going the same pace with the same PWR, doing some re-reading I see that ruffled some feathers so I'll explain further.

For Sportbike racing PWR is very real, weight in itself is a huge factor here. Tires can provide up to 'X' amount of straight line and lateral traction, the more weight you add the sooner you reach that traction point (whether braking or turning). As an example if you have a 125 lb rider on a 400 lb bike they will reach the limit of traction at a certain amount of force (again this is whether braking or turning), put a 225 lb rider on that same bike and that person will reach the limit of traction at a lower speed because of the added weight - the physics alone are undeniable. So if you have a heavier rider cornering at the same pace as a lighter rider the heavier rider is riding closer to the limit of traction than the lighter rider, there's no magic that I know of that's going to allow a heavier rider at the limit of traction to achieve the same cornering speeds as a lighter rider at the limit of traction (that would require a tire that could handle more lateral force).

Braking is another big issue here, the more weight your trying to slow down the more force required to do it in the same distance, if your close to the limit of braking traction you have to brake earlier if you have more weight to slow down. So again, if you have a heavier rider who's hanging with a lighter one in the braking zone the heavier rider is riding closer to the limit of traction than the lighter rider.

Acceleration is another HUGE factor with extra weight, even when already moving. For those that don't know, 1 MPH is 1.466 feet per second and an average motorcycle is 6.7 feet long. If someone is going 1 MPH faster than someone else they will pass them at a rate of 1 bike length apx every 4-1/2 seconds. If someone passes you at a rate of 1 bike length per second their only going 4.57 MPH faster than you - yet it would seem like their really flying. This also means that if someones acceleration curve is 1 MPH faster than someone elses they will pull away at the same rate of 1.466 feet per second during acceleration. The more weight you have the longer it takes the same amount of Hp to accelerate that weight from the same starting speed, again this is undeniable physics, if someone somehow figures out a way to accelerate more weight (with the same Hp at the same rate of acceleration) their going to end up extremely wealthy.

Adding Power into the equation starts to really show advantages that some people have, and disadvantages for others. Take the combined bike / rider weight and divide it by their Rear Wheel Hp (RWHp), this gives you their pounds per Hp. As an example, if you use the numbers I gave above (400 bike and 125 and 225 lb riders) and let's say a RWHp of 115, you can see the drastic difference in PWR between those riders - the 125 lb rider would be at 4.57 lbs per Hp, the 225 lb rider would be at 5.44 lbs per Hp. To equalize out the PWR the 225 lb rider would have to have 137 RWHp, even with the extra 22 Hp this wouldn't give the heavier rider an advantage, it would make him equal to the lighter riders 4.57 lbs per Hp and they should be dead even in a drag race down a straight.

Equal PWR racing would be much more about ability than who has a higher PWR, but as I showed above even if a lighter and heavier rider had the same PWR the heavier rider would still be at a disadvantage under braking and cornering loads - which as I said before would make the heavier rider the better rider if he's keeping up or beating the lighter one due to the heavier rider being closer to the limits of traction. 

[Mongo]

I'd love to see some proof of an 848 doing a 15.9 too...  Seems to me it would need another few hundred cc's in that motor to pull it off. 

[garrettrick]

The 15.9 was done by Tomas Puerta, he was battling with Matt Lynn when he pulled that time. The kid is an awesome rider!

[Mongo]

Is it really an 848?  I haven't really paid attention to the times at Jennings for a while but that seems too fast for even a 1k in Superstock trim.

[d-wire]

It was totally legit....assuming his bike is legal under the valve covers....and it probably is.  Kid can ride.  Matt Lynn won that race on the next lap. 

It was the fastest lap at a CCS sanctioned event at JGP.  I wanted a shot at it (on my pump gas, SS 1k), but rain on the warm up lap......

Mongo, don't Tray and those guys do like 15.5 on 1k's at JGP at the Wera Nationals?

[hamurobby]

I was the tech inspector at JGP this round, and no one so much as uttered a question of the legality of Puerta's 848 to me. Puerta is built like Rossi, kind of looks like Rossi, maybe he is his cousin?  ::) 

GSXR Mike, that is a beautiful scientific explaination of what I have been bitching and whining about.  8)

[Ducmarc]

looked at the bulletin board and it had Geoff may and  scusa or however you spell it (the mv agusta rider) as overall record holders although a can't remember which one was faster.thought it was in the 14s  been going to jennings for years and these records always seem to fall at some kind of test and not an actual race.i remember when the buell had the record. wonder whose timers there using at these tests . jennings is more of a 600 track with no superlong straight tomas's bike buzzed like 848 not a 1098 since Mr Boy has a 848 that makes 147 I would not just assume tomas was cheating

[Over-ReActor]

What in the hell is a CCS lap record? A lap record is a lap record. Are you saying a ducati 848 went faster last weekend than any 600 or 1000 has ever gone at Jennings? If thats not the case than it isnt a lap record. If it is than who was riding it?

There are such things as American, World, Olympic, collage, high school records and so forth. 250cc records. 600cc records. LP records. 45 records. Mostlyly DVD and CD now.

[hamurobby]

looked at the bulletin board and it had Geoff may and  scusa or however you spell it (the mv agusta rider) as overall record holders although a can't remember which one was faster.thought it was in the 14s  been going to jennings for years and these records always seem to fall at some kind of test and not an actual race.i remember when the buell had the record. wonder whose timers there using at these tests . jennings is more of a 600 track with no superlong straight tomas's bike buzzed like 848 not a 1098 since Mr Boy has a 848 that makes 147 I would not just assume tomas was cheating

G May did a 1:14.51 with his 1000 gsxr at a pivate test, Scassa (wsb rider) did a 1:14.81 at his test on his Agusta. Jennifer Reese (our starter in Fla ccs) timed them and it matched their lap timers.

NO ONE said Puerta is cheating!    Heck, he lost the race by almost a bike lengh to ama pro rider Matt Lynn on his Kawasaaki 600. kawasaki was paying money in that race, so I guess Matt was trying pretty hard to win.  He repassed Puerta on the last lap. Matt has been to jgp before, he was on the MV Agusta super bike team with Scassa.

If an 848 can make 147hp, how much hp can a 1098s make? 

[Been-Jammin]

Holy crap this thread continues...

Glad to see the 848 setting records. Chris Boy has been building some really nice bikes.

As a matter of fact, if I had the opportunity, I would be honored to race one. 

Congrats to Tomas!

[Ducmarc]

mr boy has his r model at 195 rwhp it has the best of everything though it would make some wsbk bikes look bad but he needs a young rider to ride it (even though he won't admit it)