848 legal for middleweight supersport?

[123user]

The factory specs are crap... everybody knows it.  CCS only has 3 supersport classes and has ump-teen superbike/gp style classes.  I believe that the rules are pretty fair if you consider what you're allowed to build.  You can't have a superstock-mentality when looking at the rules. 

CCS has been successful because they don't over-scrutinize everyone's machine.  Especially for club-racing, imposing clear power/weight ratios is nuts.  If you want to pay $300/entry so that CCS can buy 4 dynos and drag them all over the country, then you're in the minority.

My regards to Mongo, but there's already an racing organization out there with too much emphasis on legislating fairness (followed by costly engine teardowns).  It's called WERA, and I choose not to run their series because of it. 

[skiandclimb]

I agree with you, that the reality of instituting it would be laughable at best, but I still think there is more emphasis on the superbike/GP than there should be.

I suppose there will always be bitching about classes, but a little leeway should then be granted to those of us who have no desire (or $$$) to go building the fastest, lightest bikes on the track, and run close-to-stock machines.  Or, at a bare minimum, if they choose to make dispensation for certain machines, then they should also look into doing similar for older bikes, too.

[123user]

I sounds pretty jerky to say, but if you're not interested in building your machine to its potential, then you're not really "in it to win it".  Like I said, the perception a fairness is really WERA's thing... whether it really exists or not, I can't say.  A club racer that doesn't have the bucks has to win on talent... for the experts, I don't really think it matters because the cream will rise to top.  If you're an amateur...well... you're opinion doesn't really count, unless you plan on being an amateur forever.

The superbike/gp classes bring in sponsorship to CCS, 'cause really, how much crap are you gonna buy for a superstock machine?  It also creates more variety on the grids.  If it gives wealthy, no talent guys a little help... I'm ok with that.

If an attempt to level the playing field were implemented, every whining, crying, big-ego'd chump would come out of the woodwork to try to bend the rules to their advantage (ala, AMA).  I think that CCS has a good class structure formula

[hamurobby]

Mongo, of course there are plenty of big guys who can smoke me and every other club racer, --------Im going to leve their names out of this, its my argument. These guys are much larger than 200lbs and both have shown me numerous times how im not riding to my potential. Heck if everyone had to carry the weight these guys do, these guys would win everything, they are that good, but they get beat by guys who weigh alot less than them, and its very discouraging to watch. Its not about me, its about fair and relevant rules that make it equal on paper for almost everyone. I like the idea of there also being a formula to allow modifications to older bikes to keep them competitive. SCCA has a rulebook that has each particular car that is homogolated for a particular class, and it specifies a minimum weight for that car (and driver), brake size, carburetor size, wheel size etc. SCCA does not have drivers lobbying at the track to bend the rules either, they have a meeting at the end of the season for lobbying and they address each request individually. I dont think its too hard to do, and I think there would be more participation because riders would at least feel things are more equal with the machines. They could then strive to ride better to win if that is their goal. We dont have to have a complete reformulation of the rules, just bring them  up to date. We could then run, say a 1098s in f40, or 1000ds in lighteight, 848s in mw, they could be adjusted to be more in line with the other bikes performance if they were PROVED to be dominant. 

It is very difficult to race against bikes that have a relavent hp or torque advantage. When I ride in Heavy weight, and I am on a 600, and faster than a guy on a 750, It makes for some tough passing because its harder to make up the difference. That is too bad, because I am bumping up a class, and if you dont want to deal with it, dont ride in hw with a mw bike right? Well when it happens in the mw class and there is a bike that has a hp/t advantage, it is just hard to deal with mentally, you ask why am I killing myself to get by this guy who is pulling me 3 bike lenths down each straight, after I just drove up his tailpipe coming off the corner?

One more thing, if the cream really does rise to the top, then having a minimum weight will not hurt the really superfast best riders who weigh around 120lbs, right?

[Ducati23]

  How about if you weigh over 200 you get to use slicks, if you are over 225 you get magnesium wheels, etc.  Fat guys then would get some equalizers! LOL 

It is always painful to see the desmo valve engines excluded. There is no reason for this anymore. I feel for the 996 riders, no relief while a Buell rider runs two classes down with 20% more displacement?

Why can't an 848 run in Thunderbike? If it meets all of the requirements and restrictions?    

[123user]

I've already lobbied for a "fat guy class"... but no takers.  As one of the fat guy's I can tell that some rules just ain't right for me... but that doesn't mean they aren't right overall.

I think that the desmodromic bikes are placed fairly...  they are clearly superior in design.  A 996 can be making 130hp with off the shelf parts... 140-150 hp with the right builder.  And Ducati reliablility has improved dramatically in the last 10 years.

[Mongo]

Hell I'm a fatter than you guys fat guy and even if I raced I still just don't see why it should be a factor in like 95% of the classes out there.  Maybe if you're talking 125's or the like but that's about it.

[123user]

Nope shouldn't be a factor at all.  Some guys are small and fast... I'm able to get boxes off the top shelf without a step-stool.  @250lbs geared up, I weigh more than bikes I've raced.  However, I don't sit around, piss and moan about my parents giving me bad genes.  So, small guys with more ego than talent shouldn't bitch about some bike reportedly having an extra 5 HP.

[Over-ReActor]

Can we at least have minimum weights for bike and rider? or is that too much to ask from club racing? (just a150lb minimum rider weight minus gear? How about 540lbs total after the races for a mw anything?) These ancient rules are ridiculous.

I'm glad somebody finally came up with this idea. I'm a bigger man. For years I've tried to make myself go faster. Spent thousands on schools to do it. Still get my butt kicked by way larger men all the time.

Sometimes I think if I was just smaller, I could go faster. But, I've been wrong in my thinking. I don't need to make myself reach my full potential. No,  that isn't the answer. I have to slow them little bastards down by throwing weight on them.

Robby, why stop at 150lbs?  Let's make the fattest bastard on the grid the minimum weight. That would be fair. Why stop with motorcycles?

I want to be a jockey. Handicap that. I'm 220. I want to pole vault. Weigh those fuckers down. I want to fight the champ. Blind fold that prick. I'll foot race Carl Lewis. Think his back will break with the piano on it?  Everyone one has to date fat chicks cause I do.

Or we can let the best do what they do.

[GIGOLO]

I want to be a jockey. Handicap that. I'm 220. I want to pole vault. Weigh those fuckers down. I want to fight the champ. Blind fold that prick. I'll foot race Carl Lewis. Think his back will break with the piano on it?  Everyone one has to date fat chicks cause I do. Or we can let the best do what they do.

This reminds me of a soccer league in my county that doesn't keep score, so the kids dont have to experience defeat.  Everyone is a winner!!!  At least that's what they tell the kids, in my opinion those are the kids that go and shoot up innocent people when they get turned for a job. 

Point is,  I am a fat guy too, I like the idea of working out hard to go faster.  Striving for excellence (if you can call winning a club race that), is why its fun.  Why is it fair that a guy that spent 10k on a new bike is going to be on the same playing field as a guy who spent 2k on a dinosaur.  To be competitive is something that should be achieved, not to be handed

+1 on the fat guy league!!!!  Where do I sign up??  It should be sponsored by E.B.C. or Brembo, since we use so much of their products.

[hamurobby]

ILOVE THE IDEA OF HAVING A 200LB MINIMUM WEIGHT FOR THE RIDER IN CLUB RACING! That would mean it would be equal for almost all the riders, except the exceptionally large, and then the difference wouldnt be too bad to deal with. It wasnt my idea, it was my understanding that DMG was going to implement this very rule, but some body thought up the idea that a person coming off the track would need a bottle of water or two, so it wouldnt work. I cant believe that, GIVE everyone two bottles of water if they want, what is that 2lbs maybe? I know with the usgpru 125s they weigh the bike and rider, 300lb minimum, PeeWee doesnt care, he still wins. yes the pro level riders will still win club races, but having some equalizer somewhere just seems right for the average guy ridng at 190lbs. We make up over 50% of the grids, why dont we have a say in this, we do PAY to race. The smaller guys WILL NOT MIND adding weight to their bikes, because they dont believe its a factor so it wont matter to them right?  Its not hard to add weight to a bike, and you can put it where you want, its a heck of alot harder to remove weight from one, I know, I spent a whole winter last year figuring out every ounce to take off a gsxr (about 38lbs using the stock parts) When I started riding, I weighed 195 or so, and I have dieted and exercised down to 165. (im 175 now) So I have lost almost 70lbs total. Believe me, Im ALOT faster down the straights than with 70lbs. and the turning and drive grip have improved as well. That is almost a 15% weight reduction, im not any faster by skill, but I am faster because of the weight loss. when a guy (Toseland) who races wsb, then looses ten lbs of muscle to go ride motogp, you know there is alot of speed in less weight. Or maybe they are all crazy, and Pedrosa really is all that. Hey the same guys will still be out front, but I think there will be some surprises to be had. I still point to every other form of motorized competitions sanctioning body has minimum weights,
I guess they are all stupid and dont know what they are doing. In nascar, they add 50lbs of weight to a car that is starting to show an edge, and that usually puts them back in the pack.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Power to weight ratio's (P/W R) are being implemented all across the world to allow people who aren't 120 lbs a chance to compete. Extremely talented larger framed and heavier racers have been overlooked by many professional racing teams of many different types for a very long time, power to weight ratio racing helps to level the playing field by not giving the smaller framed racers a distinct advantage just because they weigh less (the Danika Patrick factor).

What better example of weight and Horsepower than horse racing? Look at Jockey's, does anyone really believe they would have a chance or even be given the opportunity to compete professionally for a major team if they were 6'-4" tall, 220 lbs, muscular, and in great shape?

A heavier rider who can hang with or beat lighter ones on the same type of bike is a better rider. Heavier riders have several very obvious handicaps when it comes to racing: slower acceleration, lower top speeds, longer braking distances, higher corner loads on the tires at the same speeds as lighter riders, accelerated tire wear, etc. Put all those different weight same riders in a level playing field using Power to Weight ratio's and that heavier rider would show just how good he really is by probably running away from the other riders he use to have trouble just hanging with.

I like what hamurobby said "The smaller guys WILL NOT MIND adding weight to their bikes, because they dont believe its a factor so it wont matter to them right?". I've challenged non-believers in P/W R to add weight to their bikes and go turn the same lap times, for some reason I have yet to meet a person who was even willing to try and prove me wrong.

But even after all that I'm a realist and also understand that P/W R racing isn't very practical due to cheaters and having to check all the bikes and riders.