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2009 rule change request

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Super Dave

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2008, 11:12:17 am »
I've seen an SV1000 in ASRA Superstock.  What's the point?  People choose not to race that class.

The similarly between the AMA, WERA, CCS, etc. is relevant because there is rider cross over.  Additionally, class cross over.

Supersport.

Superstock.

If we want to talk about where the 1098 fits, well, I can't help you find the answers on where it races on the world stage. 

The 1125R Buell does actually exist and is in production.  Should it be a heavyweight bike?  I think there might be reasons why it shouldn't be allowed in HWSS and only allowed in HWSB and up.  I have yet to ride or race one, so I don't have great answers about it. 

Rules are changed based on non existent bikes or based on the production values found in bikes that haven't had results produced by riders.  The lightweight class structure was changed for the 1999 season because of the introduction of the Suzuki SV650 and its difference from the NT650 Hawk, a bike of similar displacement, but of a different valve design, three valves vs the four valves of the SV.  That bike is also being moved to Ultralightweight based on a lot of 750 coming out like the Aprilia Shiver some of the BMW products, etc.  I have yet to see those bikes win races or in some cases be at local club events.  I have also heard rumors of an SV750. 

During a reasonable time of AMA and World Superbike, motorcycles have been allowed 750cc fours and then upto 1000cc's for a liquid cooled twin.  With 851, 888, 916, etc. in that.  With success even with 851cc's against those 750s.  WSB and AMA Superbike both adopted rules to allow 1000/4's to race against 1000/2's.  I didn't see a shortage of Ducati's playing on that battlefield well.  Down on HP?  Sure, but the design of the chassis and the torque was something that allowed it to be competitive.

Power isn't the only mitigating factor in racing, fortunately.  It would certainly be easier for a racing organization as they could just rent or license a dyno manufacturer so we could just do a couple of runs and determine the winner.  In the end it's about set up, race craft, and those combinations that lead to the best start and the fastest lap times to bring the bike across the finish line. 

I don't think there is an argument, but there are others that are going to give answers to CCS on where they thing the ever increasing displacement liquid cooled twins belong.  Ducati is going to an 1198cc production engine now for the S model, right?  It is what it is really.  1000cc liquid cooled twin like an SV, TL, or RC, sure,it fits in heavyweight.  Still down on outright power from a similarly set up GSXR750, but that's a choice.  Add new technology, ram air, and more displacement to the 999, and I just don't have any reason to believe that the bike belongs in HW. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 11:14:48 am by Super Dave »
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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2008, 11:36:24 am »
I said earlier I dont think the 1198 should be alowed in but the 1098 just doesnt offer that big if any advantage in my opinion over a similarly set up GSXR750. Ive raced both this year. My better finish is on the GSXR in Heavyweight. The 1098 is just not bustling with performance. Its a lot heavier and the power is very close. The 1098R/09' 1098 that are basically 1200cc I agree that they should not be in Heavyweight.

We'll just have to wait and see what the cahnges will be for next year. I just dont see many 1098s out there at all right now anyways so I dont see why its an issue and Id hate to see the 07/08 1098s that are 1098 ccs get lumped in with the bigger motors next year because everyone is going to look at a 1098 and say thats a 1200cc bike when they all arent. If they make a change I hope they make a displacement change and not base it on cutting off a specific model/brand of bike.
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08 Ducati 1098
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Darin Morrell

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roadracer162

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2008, 01:11:07 pm »
July at Homestead
Expert Unlimited GP
SUZ 100 ROBERTINO PIETRI
DUC 109 BARRETT LONG
SUZ 100 MICHAEL BARNES
SUZ 100 LARS REMSEN
SUZ 100 MICHAEL ROULEA
KAW 100 JEFF LAMPE
YAM 600 REYNOL DOMINGUEZ
SUZ 600 ALEXANDER MINIACI
YAM 600 BRADLY GRAHAM
SUZ 750 ROBERT DOUGHERTY, GAINESVILLE
SUZ 750 MARK CARBAJAL
SUZ 100 CARLOS FABIAN
HON 954 GUILLERMO NOVILLO
SUZ 100 MARCO MARTINEZ

August at Homestead
Expert Unlimited GP
DUC 109 BARRETT LONG
SUZ 100 MICHAEL ROULEAU
KAW 100 JEFF LAMPE
YAM 600 SEAN DWYER
SUZ 600 DARREN LUCK
 YAM 600 KYLE KEESEE
KAW 100 GREG GORMAN
HON 954 GUILLERMO NOVILLO
SUZ 100 LARS REMSEN
25 DUC 109 MARCO MARTINEZ
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Mark Tenn
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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2008, 02:12:55 pm »
Yeah I can pick out obscure cut and paste info as well to back my case.

Look at the heavyweight grids in those two weekends....once you drop the 1098 you have a race of 5 bikes and a race of 4 bikes in the expert grids? Thats a shame.  That doesnt sound to me like a good case for a rules change. Look at the Unlimited Superbike results those same weekends. Clearly Barrett Long is a fast racer, and would be on whatever hes racing Id assume, but you are talking about 1-2 bikes over all in that region? Come on. Thats like me making a case for the GSRX1000 and saying just look at Jeff Wood. Hell he beats most guys on 1000s with his 600.

Oh and what do you know you pick the #5 plate guy in the region to make your case?
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08 Ducati 1098
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Darin Morrell

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roadracer162

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2008, 03:00:02 pm »
I can acknowledge your skepticism if you were not there to view the race. It was a relatively wet weekend with hit and miss rain. If you do notice in Unlimited Superbike results thet you refer to, Barrett did finish in front of Sean the #1 SE plate. I dont recall if they had a mishap on track.

In the Florida region we do have a couple Amateur riders on the 1098 and a couple Experts I have seen also. Marco was gonna be fast on whatever he rode.

I hear what you say and it is arguable, but when the masses come against you then you have a fight on your hands. Maybe if you start now they will defer the change until the following year as they did with the SV in Ultralight.

Mark
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Mark Tenn
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Super Dave

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2008, 03:19:41 pm »
I'll point out Michael Barnes in the results.  As he is "a fast racer".  In fact, people will pay him to race for them.  He can beat most riders on 1000's with a 600, but he didn't win with the 1000 over Barrett. 

It's not a slouch.  Just because it's expensive and exclusive it doesn't make the fact that it's a fully capable bike that most can't afford, won't race, and can't set up or execute in a way that it within the capabilities of the bike.

Similarly, a lot of riders that get off their GSXR1000's find that they can actually go faster on their GSXR600's. 

I can't get over the fact that the Ducati 1098 is Ducati's flag ship motorcycle with 1098cc's, FI, top shelf everything, and a full blown contender intended for the top level production classes, similar to the GSXR1000, the ZX10R, the R1, etc.  I don't think they built it to shoot into the ground to compete in "heavyweight" classes.

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Super Dave

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 03:51:50 pm »
I think the R is thier flagship race bike, its just way too expensive in my opinion. The base model is a good bike but it really isnt too much more expensive than any other liter bike if you are doing race prep. It doesnt come with good suspension or anything. I put just as much dollar figure into my GSXR and RC51. Me personally have always been more comfortable on a Twin, always gone faster on a twin.

I saw Michael Barnes on there. Made me think of watching Jeff Wood beat Josh Hayes at the VIR round earlier this year. I know that Hayes on his FX or supersport bike wold beat wood though. Its just one of those things where that caliber of rider can show up and be fast on anything. I mean I have finished ahead of Jensen in a race or two  but only because it was a test/tune session for him and a race for me. I Raced with Sean this last weekend at VIR, he is definately a fast guy too, so I also notied that in the results and thought Barret must be very fast to be ahead of him.

Id like to see the 1098 stay a heavyweight but like I said wherever the rules put it is where Im racing and Im fine with that. I just think the base model belongs as a heavyweight.  Regardless IM still going to have 600s beating me in some races. I just want to race basically
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08 Ducati 1098
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Darin Morrell

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roadracer162

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 04:31:51 pm »
Barnes was flying that weekend as he always seem to find the speed. Barrett was very fast and posted the fast lap during Saturday practice.

 I am pretty sure though that Barrett is on the 1098R and not the regular 1098. I don't know the difference other than the R is for top level racing such as WSB and the regular is for the masses. I would guess that you could make your 1098 faster and just as fast possibly as the R-but at what cost? That is the price you pay for running a Ducati.

I myself have gone from my trusty FZR400 that cost me $700 total to put together, tinkered on it and I am currently leading the Ultralight class in the Florida region. My rival and nemesis Scott has been on a Duc 800 and he is catching me. He is consistently 3 seconds per lap faster than my little FZR. I finally conceided that I wasn't gonna get it done on the FZR and bought a Duc800 of my own. Won the last race in Homestead so all is looking good barring any catastrophic failures. Those Ducatis cost some bucks.

Mark
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Mark Tenn
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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2008, 12:26:36 pm »
Actually there is a monster difference in the base and R models. 20hp difference in the motor alone. But the are really two different motorcycles.
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08 Ducati 1098
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Darin Morrell

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roadracer162

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2008, 04:47:02 pm »
I understand that just as the Ducati DS1000 and the Bimota is very different with the Bimota costing $20K more. But still there is a lot that can be done to the Duc DS just as in the 1098. How much more is the 1098R...or is the choice to get the 1098 and upgrade it out of the question?

Mark
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Mark Tenn
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naya the dingo

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2008, 06:58:38 pm »
I understand that just as the Ducati DS1000 and the Bimota is very different with the Bimota costing $20K more. But still there is a lot that can be done to the Duc DS just as in the 1098. How much more is the 1098R...or is the choice to get the 1098 and upgrade it out of the question?

Mark

$25,000 price difference from the standard 1098 to the 1098R.  There is also a 100cc difference in the displacement, and then there's the titanium connecting rods, titanium valves, 20+ hp, 10 more lb ft torque, full Ohlins, etc.  It wouldn't be feasible to replicate the R model without spending around the $40k range.
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Lory Shifflett
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roadracer162

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Re: 2009 rule change request
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2008, 09:16:05 pm »
Then the choice is easy. Get the R model.

Mark
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Mark Tenn
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Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.