Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Rules and Regs => Topic started by: Garywc on August 21, 2008, 09:49:35 PM

Title: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Garywc on August 21, 2008, 09:49:35 PM
when do we get to submit ideas for rule changes?
i have one for now
moto st number plates since some are blue, be aloud in the team challenge without changing plate colors
and giving out an x if someone has the same number

or even for the 2008 Daytona R.O.C.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on August 22, 2008, 07:58:11 AM
Gary, now is a good time to start.

What you'll want to do is find the exact section of the rule book and write it in a way where it could just be placed in the rule book with the underline to show that it's new. 

Some kind of reasoning is good.  Really necessary to show cause for the change.  And getting your new rule idea in the hands of others to generate support will help too. 
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Garywc on August 22, 2008, 08:56:16 AM
ok hows this

5.3 Number Display regulations
add...
Team and solo challenge number plates to be of adequate size and clearly legible
but color is up to the team/rider (such as Moto-ST blue)
also award X's in these classes due to bikes run in other series competing
once an X is given it is to be it is to be used all season by that team


hows that?

Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: daviid on September 13, 2008, 11:56:14 AM
Quote from: Garywc on August 22, 2008, 08:56:16 AM
ok hows this

5.3 Number Display regulations
add...
Team and solo challenge number plates to be of adequate size and clearly legible
but color is up to the team/rider (such as Moto-ST blue)
also award X's in these classes due to bikes run in other series competing
once an X is given it is to be it is to be used all season by that team


hows that?


i disagree with it, reason being, CCS shouldnt have to change the rules due to competitors of other series not wanting to adjust there bikes as required to run CCS. Also its not that hard to take some white vinyl and and get some #s to comply with the rules. People who share bikes in sprint races have no problems doing this (even with back to back races), i cant see it being to hard to change the # plates on a bike that should have plenty of time between races
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 16, 2008, 11:43:21 AM
Quote from: daviid on September 13, 2008, 11:56:14 AM
i disagree with it, reason being, CCS shouldnt have to change the rules due to competitors of other series not wanting to adjust there bikes as required to run CCS. Also its not that hard to take some white vinyl and and get some #s to comply with the rules. People who share bikes in sprint races have no problems doing this (even with back to back races), i cant see it being to hard to change the # plates on a bike that should have plenty of time between races
I see no where in the CCS rules where a lack of number plate is allowed...but it has been...
http://www.gron4.com/2008/082408/teamchallenge/70/

I've seen numbers like that in WERA, but never allowed in CCS until above.  Is CCS making allowances that are unknown to some competitors?


Sorry, Paul. 
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Burt Munro on September 16, 2008, 01:35:32 PM
Hey Paul,

Thanks for the case of beer!    :thumb:


(Just kidding...... not sure how that one slipped thru)
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: coolice on September 21, 2008, 09:16:55 PM
Ha ha SD .......tech didn't say anything until......the practice session was over.
Nothin good ole white duct tape can't fix :) 8)
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Eye-p on September 22, 2008, 02:52:36 PM
Just got the ROC flyer in the mail and noticed the proposal for banning the 1098 from Heavyweight classes. I think this would be a bad move.

There is almost no chance that a 180hp GSXR is going to be beaten by a 155hp 1098.

I am thinking about racing a 1098 next year in SuperTwins and HWSBK but there is no chance I will be racing it against the open class bikes.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 23, 2008, 07:14:10 AM
I'm not a fan of that idea either. The 1098 is not competitive against the open class bikes plain and simple. I think the 1098 fits in fine as a heavyweight especially since hp is the same as a 750 I4.  I could understand the 1198R not being allowed to play in the heavyweight class but the base 1098 puts out around 140 hp in stock form.

Of course I think its rediculous to see 1200 cc Buels in the lightweight class.

Just my thoughts...
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 23, 2008, 11:02:47 AM
Quote from: Rookie on September 23, 2008, 07:14:10 AM
I'm not a fan of that idea either. The 1098 is not competitive against the open class bikes plain and simple. I think the 1098 fits in fine as a heavyweight especially since hp is the same as a 750 I4.  I could understand the 1198R not being allowed to play in the heavyweight class but the base 1098 puts out around 140 hp in stock form.

Of course I think its rediculous to see 1200 cc Buels in the lightweight class.

Just my thoughts...
My GSXR750 was at about 130, and that was with a thinner base gasket and a simple go through on the engine.  That seems to be on par with 848's? 

140HP stock and an extra 350cc's?  I'm all for the 1098 being in Unlimited.

As for a 1200cc air cooled Buell, having been on one, and putting one over my own scales at 452# post race, it's not a middleweight bike at all.  It has a 1203cc's of displacement, air cooling, pushrods, and a huge redline of less than 7k.  It's tractor technology with fuel injection.  Cool fuel injection, yeah, but there is no opportunity to increase the RPM's so substantially above it's efficiency point to make any huge in roads into making more power.  Nor does it have any stock ram air like many bikes in Middleweight and above classes.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Eye-p on September 23, 2008, 11:28:51 AM
An average GSXR 750 with a pipe and map will make 140hp at the wheel. If you had a thinner head gasket and made 130, that is likely a product of a very stingy dyno, where you would see roughly the same numbers from a 1098.
Remember, this is for Superbike where you can change cams and so on. Is 150 hp out of the question for the GSXR?

Again, with the open class bikes making upwards of 175hp, how can the 1098 possibly compete?
Yes, you will occasionally see a $45k 1198r making 170hp, but that is not going to be normal...
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 23, 2008, 11:31:49 AM
Well we can play the game back and forth about who has the displacement advantage verses the weight advantage verses the hp advantage...

I raced an 06 gsxr-750 at the beginning of this season and mine made 139hp on U4. My 1098 makes about 148hp with a full system and race ecu.
I dont see a huge advantage anywhere.

What I see is a massive advantage for the 1000 against the 1098 compared to the advantage of the 1098 against the 750. From where Im sitting the field is more level as it already is.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Eye-p on September 23, 2008, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: Rookie on September 23, 2008, 11:31:49 AM
I raced an 06 gsxr-750 at the beginning of this season and mine made 139hp on U4.

Actually you were running the same pump 93 that I was using that day.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: cbrf4_269 on September 23, 2008, 05:47:25 PM
how about stiffer penalties for obvious cheaters.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 24, 2008, 04:40:35 PM
This is the same scenario just a different set of bikes. I was told that my aged FZR600 is a middleweight bike and I have agreed to abide by that thought. The other statemant to me was buy a bike that is competitive within the rules.

The 1098 has 350cc more than the Heavyweight bikes. It should remain as a Unlimited (my opinion). If the 1098 is not competitive buy something that is.

We can go on and on. The Ducati DS1000 in LW? I don't agree but what done is done. I now have a Duc800 and running in the Ultralight class. The 800 is comparable to the SV as compared on the track of the Florida region. I have a feeling this Duc800 is gonna be faster than my FZR600 as I am learning how to go faster on this bike.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Garywc on September 24, 2008, 05:49:00 PM
are they still goingto make the sv ultra lightweight next season?
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 24, 2008, 07:49:38 PM
No plans in stopping it so yes the SV will be Ultralight. Funny thing though is that the SV still beat up on the Duc1000 in the lightweight class (Arnie Hastings, Rodolfo Ramirez).

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 25, 2008, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: roadracer22 on September 24, 2008, 04:40:35 PM


The 1098 has 350cc more than the Heavyweight bikes. It should remain as a Unlimited (my opinion).
Mark
Twins have always had a 250cc advantage or more if you want to talk about BMW or Buells, and been in the heavyweight class. You guys are making it sound like suddenly there is a massive displacement advantage over 750 liquid cooled I4s. These are different engine configurations, they make comparable power. One has a little weight advantage, one has a little hp advantage but they both make comparable power and have always been in the same class.

This being the case why not drop the entire heavyweight class altogether since there is only one real manufacturer of 750cc bikes....

Like I said, I can understand the 1098R not being a heavyweight but the base model and even the S are in my opinion heavyweights. I dont see any reason to change this.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 25, 2008, 09:08:50 PM
If memory serves me right the 750 inline 4 and the 1000 twin have been in the same class. I believe that the 1098 is one step above as far as displacement goes. Maybe Ducati should build an inline 4 if it is such an advantage. Not!

I know your argument and it is the same that I have used for my beloved FZR. The fact remains that there are more people vying against your argument. If you love the 1098 then run it. If you want to win then get something that does. I can't fight that, I bought a Duc 800 which is for now arguably the class leading bike for the Ultralight. Funny thing is I think the Duc 800 is gonna be faster than my FZR. With that thought I should do well in the middleweight class because that is where the FZR600 is supposed to be.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 26, 2008, 05:41:00 AM
Quote from: Rookie on September 25, 2008, 05:43:20 PM
Twins have always had a 250cc advantage or more if you want to talk about BMW or Buells, and been in the heavyweight class. You guys are making it sound like suddenly there is a massive displacement advantage over 750 liquid cooled I4s. These are different engine configurations, they make comparable power. One has a little weight advantage, one has a little hp advantage but they both make comparable power and have always been in the same class.

This being the case why not drop the entire heavyweight class altogether since there is only one real manufacturer of 750cc bikes....

Like I said, I can understand the 1098R not being a heavyweight but the base model and even the S are in my opinion heavyweights. I dont see any reason to change this.
Buells and BMW's are different than the Ducati in that they are air cooled, I think you're aware.  Not to mention that the Buell even has push rods.  A 1098 is a full on deal. 

And no, they didn't always have the displacement advantage.  It happened in the mid 80's to get their involvement. 

Heavyweight classes still offer a good class for middleweight bikes to bump into without trying to race between corners with over powered 1000's too.  That's good revenue for CCS, WERA, AFM, etc.  Additionally, there are other manufacturers that could make bikes for that class. 
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 26, 2008, 08:26:52 AM
Ok so youre talking about a decision made 20 years ago to put twins and I4s in the same class?

It seems more to me that the argument here is against the Ducati and not the rules package. Currently it says I4s up to 775cc for Heavyweight Superbike, ALL other engine configurations unlimited....are you telling me the XBRR isnt a "full on deal"???

You say buy a bike that is competitive for the class...well I did, I bought a 1098 that fits right in the rules for that class. I have no problem with a rules change but your arguments are against one bike period. It has nothing to do with changing rules for the class itself. In looking through the results this year in heavyweight Im only finding a handfull if that of people racing the 1098 so where is the issue all of a sudden? So you arent making a more level playing field anywhere, youre creating a smaller grid in that race. I have yet to see a 1098 take a win anywhere in heavyweight yet or even a podium in mid-atlantic. I do see that BMW and a whole lot of 600s do that though.

Regardless of any rules change I'll be out there racing anyway, I just dont like the idea of losing one of my favorite classes to race in because some people perceive this massive performance advantage.

Anyone see a 1098 racing ASRA? Maybe someone is but I havent seen it yet around where Im at.

This is just club racing by the way....

Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 26, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
No, I haven't seen any 1098's in ASRA.  That's called choice.  Enter yourself.  Change it up.

I believe that Barret Long did well on the 1098.  I'm not going to look for the results, but you can.

Bikes don't win, though.  It has to be an individual that uses the tool in a manner that gives the win.

Is this rule against one bike?  The KTM RC8 is set to be released, and it is a 1190.  I don't know it's performance paramters.  Additionally, there is the Buell 1125R.  I have yet to see one myself at the race track.  Supposed to be pretty potent.

XBRR?  It's still air cooled, push rod.  And only one has finished the Daytona 200.  By AMA standards, it's a middleweight bike for FX.  Is it allowed in Thunderbike?  I don't believe so because of the rules for the frame and being an actual production street model.  That would make it only raceable in CCS Grand Prix classes and Supertwins.  Having actually raced against one, it's a really fast 600 with a fast rider aboard. 
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 26, 2008, 10:47:55 AM
Clearly you have any answer for everything that doesnt address the question posed to you. You list bikes that arent even in production as an argument . You like to keep saying that buells are push rod/air cooled.... ok well they make a ton of torque and are not down on power at all. And whats your point about only 1 finishing a Daytona 200? There arent any 1098s in the AMA at all? So what, were talking about club racing in CCS.

By your own rationale the bike doesnt win so anyone racing heavyweight superbike shouldnt have a problem with a 1098 on the grid since it is the "individual using the tool in a manner that gives the win"

There arent 1098s in ASRA because they make nowhere near the power the I41000s make, if you cant see that then you truly are blinded by your opinion. I only use ASRA as an example because you propose the 1098 is an unlimited bike which makes it race against only 1000cc I4s.

I'll just wait and see what the rules changes are for next year and go racing. I've posted my opinon about it, Im certainly not going to argue about it.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Eye-p on September 26, 2008, 10:58:21 AM
Seems pretty simple. Since its the rider and not the bike, and the performance between the I4 750's is roughly on par with the KTM, 1125r, and 1098, they should all be legal for HWT.

Or, you could force them to go Unlimited and straight kill off the HWT classes altogether- aside from all the guys on 600's riding up...
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 26, 2008, 11:12:17 AM
I've seen an SV1000 in ASRA Superstock.  What's the point?  People choose not to race that class.

The similarly between the AMA, WERA, CCS, etc. is relevant because there is rider cross over.  Additionally, class cross over.

Supersport.

Superstock.

If we want to talk about where the 1098 fits, well, I can't help you find the answers on where it races on the world stage. 

The 1125R Buell does actually exist and is in production.  Should it be a heavyweight bike?  I think there might be reasons why it shouldn't be allowed in HWSS and only allowed in HWSB and up.  I have yet to ride or race one, so I don't have great answers about it. 

Rules are changed based on non existent bikes or based on the production values found in bikes that haven't had results produced by riders.  The lightweight class structure was changed for the 1999 season because of the introduction of the Suzuki SV650 and its difference from the NT650 Hawk, a bike of similar displacement, but of a different valve design, three valves vs the four valves of the SV.  That bike is also being moved to Ultralightweight based on a lot of 750 coming out like the Aprilia Shiver some of the BMW products, etc.  I have yet to see those bikes win races or in some cases be at local club events.  I have also heard rumors of an SV750. 

During a reasonable time of AMA and World Superbike, motorcycles have been allowed 750cc fours and then upto 1000cc's for a liquid cooled twin.  With 851, 888, 916, etc. in that.  With success even with 851cc's against those 750s.  WSB and AMA Superbike both adopted rules to allow 1000/4's to race against 1000/2's.  I didn't see a shortage of Ducati's playing on that battlefield well.  Down on HP?  Sure, but the design of the chassis and the torque was something that allowed it to be competitive.

Power isn't the only mitigating factor in racing, fortunately.  It would certainly be easier for a racing organization as they could just rent or license a dyno manufacturer so we could just do a couple of runs and determine the winner.  In the end it's about set up, race craft, and those combinations that lead to the best start and the fastest lap times to bring the bike across the finish line. 

I don't think there is an argument, but there are others that are going to give answers to CCS on where they thing the ever increasing displacement liquid cooled twins belong.  Ducati is going to an 1198cc production engine now for the S model, right?  It is what it is really.  1000cc liquid cooled twin like an SV, TL, or RC, sure,it fits in heavyweight.  Still down on outright power from a similarly set up GSXR750, but that's a choice.  Add new technology, ram air, and more displacement to the 999, and I just don't have any reason to believe that the bike belongs in HW. 
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 26, 2008, 11:36:24 AM
I said earlier I dont think the 1198 should be alowed in but the 1098 just doesnt offer that big if any advantage in my opinion over a similarly set up GSXR750. Ive raced both this year. My better finish is on the GSXR in Heavyweight. The 1098 is just not bustling with performance. Its a lot heavier and the power is very close. The 1098R/09' 1098 that are basically 1200cc I agree that they should not be in Heavyweight.

We'll just have to wait and see what the cahnges will be for next year. I just dont see many 1098s out there at all right now anyways so I dont see why its an issue and Id hate to see the 07/08 1098s that are 1098 ccs get lumped in with the bigger motors next year because everyone is going to look at a 1098 and say thats a 1200cc bike when they all arent. If they make a change I hope they make a displacement change and not base it on cutting off a specific model/brand of bike.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 26, 2008, 01:11:07 PM
July at Homestead
Expert Unlimited GP
SUZ 100 ROBERTINO PIETRI
DUC 109 BARRETT LONG
SUZ 100 MICHAEL BARNES
SUZ 100 LARS REMSEN
SUZ 100 MICHAEL ROULEA
KAW 100 JEFF LAMPE
YAM 600 REYNOL DOMINGUEZ
SUZ 600 ALEXANDER MINIACI
YAM 600 BRADLY GRAHAM
SUZ 750 ROBERT DOUGHERTY, GAINESVILLE
SUZ 750 MARK CARBAJAL
SUZ 100 CARLOS FABIAN
HON 954 GUILLERMO NOVILLO
SUZ 100 MARCO MARTINEZ

August at Homestead
Expert Unlimited GP
DUC 109 BARRETT LONG
SUZ 100 MICHAEL ROULEAU
KAW 100 JEFF LAMPE
YAM 600 SEAN DWYER
SUZ 600 DARREN LUCK
YAM 600 KYLE KEESEE
KAW 100 GREG GORMAN
HON 954 GUILLERMO NOVILLO
SUZ 100 LARS REMSEN
25 DUC 109 MARCO MARTINEZ
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 26, 2008, 02:12:55 PM
Yeah I can pick out obscure cut and paste info as well to back my case.

Look at the heavyweight grids in those two weekends....once you drop the 1098 you have a race of 5 bikes and a race of 4 bikes in the expert grids? Thats a shame.  That doesnt sound to me like a good case for a rules change. Look at the Unlimited Superbike results those same weekends. Clearly Barrett Long is a fast racer, and would be on whatever hes racing Id assume, but you are talking about 1-2 bikes over all in that region? Come on. Thats like me making a case for the GSRX1000 and saying just look at Jeff Wood. Hell he beats most guys on 1000s with his 600.

Oh and what do you know you pick the #5 plate guy in the region to make your case?
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 26, 2008, 03:00:02 PM
I can acknowledge your skepticism if you were not there to view the race. It was a relatively wet weekend with hit and miss rain. If you do notice in Unlimited Superbike results thet you refer to, Barrett did finish in front of Sean the #1 SE plate. I dont recall if they had a mishap on track.

In the Florida region we do have a couple Amateur riders on the 1098 and a couple Experts I have seen also. Marco was gonna be fast on whatever he rode.

I hear what you say and it is arguable, but when the masses come against you then you have a fight on your hands. Maybe if you start now they will defer the change until the following year as they did with the SV in Ultralight.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on September 26, 2008, 03:19:41 PM
I'll point out Michael Barnes in the results.  As he is "a fast racer".  In fact, people will pay him to race for them.  He can beat most riders on 1000's with a 600, but he didn't win with the 1000 over Barrett. 

It's not a slouch.  Just because it's expensive and exclusive it doesn't make the fact that it's a fully capable bike that most can't afford, won't race, and can't set up or execute in a way that it within the capabilities of the bike.

Similarly, a lot of riders that get off their GSXR1000's find that they can actually go faster on their GSXR600's. 

I can't get over the fact that the Ducati 1098 is Ducati's flag ship motorcycle with 1098cc's, FI, top shelf everything, and a full blown contender intended for the top level production classes, similar to the GSXR1000, the ZX10R, the R1, etc.  I don't think they built it to shoot into the ground to compete in "heavyweight" classes.

Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 26, 2008, 03:51:50 PM
I think the R is thier flagship race bike, its just way too expensive in my opinion. The base model is a good bike but it really isnt too much more expensive than any other liter bike if you are doing race prep. It doesnt come with good suspension or anything. I put just as much dollar figure into my GSXR and RC51. Me personally have always been more comfortable on a Twin, always gone faster on a twin.

I saw Michael Barnes on there. Made me think of watching Jeff Wood beat Josh Hayes at the VIR round earlier this year. I know that Hayes on his FX or supersport bike wold beat wood though. Its just one of those things where that caliber of rider can show up and be fast on anything. I mean I have finished ahead of Jensen in a race or two  but only because it was a test/tune session for him and a race for me. I Raced with Sean this last weekend at VIR, he is definately a fast guy too, so I also notied that in the results and thought Barret must be very fast to be ahead of him.

Id like to see the 1098 stay a heavyweight but like I said wherever the rules put it is where Im racing and Im fine with that. I just think the base model belongs as a heavyweight.  Regardless IM still going to have 600s beating me in some races. I just want to race basically
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 26, 2008, 04:31:51 PM
Barnes was flying that weekend as he always seem to find the speed. Barrett was very fast and posted the fast lap during Saturday practice.

I am pretty sure though that Barrett is on the 1098R and not the regular 1098. I don't know the difference other than the R is for top level racing such as WSB and the regular is for the masses. I would guess that you could make your 1098 faster and just as fast possibly as the R-but at what cost? That is the price you pay for running a Ducati.

I myself have gone from my trusty FZR400 that cost me $700 total to put together, tinkered on it and I am currently leading the Ultralight class in the Florida region. My rival and nemesis Scott has been on a Duc 800 and he is catching me. He is consistently 3 seconds per lap faster than my little FZR. I finally conceided that I wasn't gonna get it done on the FZR and bought a Duc800 of my own. Won the last race in Homestead so all is looking good barring any catastrophic failures. Those Ducatis cost some bucks.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Rookie on September 27, 2008, 12:26:36 PM
Actually there is a monster difference in the base and R models. 20hp difference in the motor alone. But the are really two different motorcycles.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 27, 2008, 04:47:02 PM
I understand that just as the Ducati DS1000 and the Bimota is very different with the Bimota costing $20K more. But still there is a lot that can be done to the Duc DS just as in the 1098. How much more is the 1098R...or is the choice to get the 1098 and upgrade it out of the question?

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: naya the dingo on September 27, 2008, 06:58:38 PM
Quote from: roadracer22 on September 27, 2008, 04:47:02 PM
I understand that just as the Ducati DS1000 and the Bimota is very different with the Bimota costing $20K more. But still there is a lot that can be done to the Duc DS just as in the 1098. How much more is the 1098R...or is the choice to get the 1098 and upgrade it out of the question?

Mark

$25,000 price difference from the standard 1098 to the 1098R.  There is also a 100cc difference in the displacement, and then there's the titanium connecting rods, titanium valves, 20+ hp, 10 more lb ft torque, full Ohlins, etc.  It wouldn't be feasible to replicate the R model without spending around the $40k range.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 27, 2008, 09:16:05 PM
Then the choice is easy. Get the R model.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: xb9racer on September 29, 2008, 10:42:47 PM
what about a super single class like WERA  has?
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on September 30, 2008, 08:51:10 AM
Quote from: xb9racer on September 29, 2008, 10:42:47 PM
what about a super single class like WERA  has?

I think that was absorbed into the Ultra light due to lack of participation.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: xb9racer on October 01, 2008, 06:54:11 PM
now with sv's in ultra lite, seems stupid. But I guess if there's a lack of entries. Would be worth a look though. I plan on running a motard next year. would be nice to stand at least a half a chance!
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Ducmarc on October 01, 2008, 10:17:40 PM
damn you did come to the dark side mark . of course those ain't stock bikes barnes luck and marco are riding either ducati allows you to buy all the trick parts with a bank loan instead.  as far as barrett he is on an R they bought it to ride ama superbike then found out it wasn't legal.so they turned their attention to club racing for the rest of the year. as far as his riding ability he qualified as a wild card in the GP 250 race at indy yes on the last row but on an antique yamaha.  to bad they  got rained  out .if you need any help on the duc pm me  marc
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: honda60071 on October 05, 2008, 03:01:36 PM
Does anyone know if they have thought about doing away with the heavyweight or unlimited  and just having a 600 class and 1000 class and making it a longer sprint race like 8 to 10 laps ?
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: Super Dave on October 05, 2008, 06:40:24 PM
Quote from: honda60071 on October 05, 2008, 03:01:36 PM
Does anyone know if they have thought about doing away with the heavyweight or unlimited  and just having a 600 class and 1000 class and making it a longer sprint race like 8 to 10 laps ?
Something like that has been asked for years and years and years, even if it was just for experts, and it's been shot down year after year.

Longer races and fewer races would require an increase in entry fees, and it appears that many aren't interested in that often.  This is probably made reasonably obvious by not a lot more entries in a lot of the ASRA classes that have qualifying opportunities in addition to their races being longer and a purse.

I will be one of the first to say that with the recent insurance problems with AIG and other issues on the stock market, I would speculate that our entry fees will have to increase in 2009 because of increased race day insurance.  I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I think that it's probably a good possibility that we as racers will have to start planning for already as CCS and other organizations can only absorb so much. 

Title: Re: 2009 rule change request in F40
Post by: redlinepilot on November 01, 2008, 06:20:58 PM
Steve Guanche
CCS Florida, EX # 15
Palmetto Motorsports, Motul, Dunlop & Shark Helmets

I've been reading all the posts and threads addressing the equipment disparity in F40 this year. I have been racing this class for 11 years and the last ten years were great as a Super Sport Class. The issue was realized for me as soon as the class was bumped up to Super Bike Class and rules. We have racers that do have the means to acquire cost prohibited 1098's and it's not just the bike but Florida has a good handful of racers that are previous Champions in other Premier Classes and have now turned 40.

So not only do they have big bucks they are also fast! What was the most interesting statistic is in the last several years is racers upgrading their 600's (R6,etc) and doing well in F40 as the class population has truly grown with average fields 4 to 5 rows deep. The flood gate did not open till the rules changed to Superbike spec. Having said that, I too have spoken directly to Eric @ CCS to discuss the matter and I received a well polished response to submit my written recommendation for consideration.

CCS is not considering a SPEC Class of any kind at this time. Significantly changing a class that was intended for mature journeyman level racers with costs that relate to a Super Sport program to a Superbike level, it obviously raises your operating budjet by far and eliminates any expectation to challenge class leaders if you intend to race all year.

In essence, if you can't afford the equipment allowed (1098's) in the class or the the cost to maintain it, the disenchantment is that you have just been knocked out of the Gentleman's Premier Class and have to find a Light Weight Class bike that suits you...not. For those of us that are more well intended, let's get together to get our Gentleman's class back the way it was, there was nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on November 01, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
Quote from: xb9racer on October 01, 2008, 06:54:11 PM
now with sv's in ultra lite, seems stupid. But I guess if there's a lack of entries. Would be worth a look though. I plan on running a motard next year. would be nice to stand at least a half a chance!

I know what you mean. It will cost you lots to be competitive but you can be. David Gaviria on his CRF450 was lightning fast and could run on the shorter tracks such as Jennings and did very well against the fastest SV riders of the Flroida region. I could nbever keep up with him on my FZR600 except for once which was one of my best races and when I clocked my fastest lap at Jennings GP. Daytona is another story.

Truthfully I believe the Ducati 800 and SV650 are truly lightweight bikes and should not have been in the Ultralight class. The Duc 1000 DS and Bimota should have been restricted from running Lightweight Supersport and allowed in the GP and Superbike classes. Just my thought.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on November 01, 2008, 07:07:46 PM
Quote from: redlinepilot on November 01, 2008, 06:20:58 PM
Steve Guanche
CCS Florida, EX # 15
Palmetto Motorsports, Motul, Dunlop & Shark Helmets

I've been reading all the posts and threads addressing the equipment disparity in F40 this year. I have been racing this class for 11 years and the last ten years were great as a Super Sport Class. The issue was realized for me as soon as the class was bumped up to Super Bike Class and rules. We have racers that do have the means to acquire cost prohibited 1098's and it's not just the bike but Florida has a good handful of racers that are previous Champions in other Premier Classes and have now turned 40.

So not only do they have big bucks they are also fast! What was the most interesting statistic is in the last several years is racers upgrading their 600's (R6,etc) and doing well in F40 as the class population has truly grown with average fields 4 to 5 rows deep. The flood gate did not open till the rules changed to Superbike spec. Having said that, I too have spoken directly to Eric @ CCS to discuss the matter and I received a well polished response to submit my written recommendation for consideration.

CCS is not considering a SPEC Class of any kind at this time. Significantly changing a class that was intended for mature journeyman level racers with costs that relate to a Super Sport program to a Superbike level, it obviously raises your operating budjet by far and eliminates any expectation to challenge class leaders if you intend to race all year.

In essence, if you can't afford the equipment allowed (1098's) in the class or the the cost to maintain it, the disenchantment is that you have just been knocked out of the Gentleman's Premier Class and have to find a Light Weight Class bike that suits you...not. For those of us that are more well intended, let's get together to get our Gentleman's class back the way it was, there was nothing wrong with it.


I am with ya Steve. Superbike for the Lightweight F40 and Supersport for the Heavyweights. But Marco and Greg will be fast on anything they run even in supersport form.

Mark
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: banzai1 on November 03, 2008, 09:03:18 PM
Shit! And I'm building a superbike motor for the zook!
This talk of supersport rules might keep me away.
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: redlinepilot on November 04, 2008, 04:00:26 PM
Quote from: roadracer22 on November 01, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
I know what you mean. It will cost you lots to be competitive but you can be. David Gaviria on his CRF450 was lightning fast and could run on the shorter tracks such as Jennings and did very well against the fastest SV riders of the Flroida region. I could nbever keep up with him on my FZR600 except for once which was one of my best races and when I clocked my fastest lap at Jennings GP. Daytona is another story.

Truthfully I believe the Ducati 800 and SV650 are truly lightweight bikes and should not have been in the Ultralight class. The Duc 1000 DS and Bimota should have been restricted from running Lightweight Supersport and allowed in the GP and Superbike classes. Just my thought.

Mark


You know Mark, I seen you and Scott Robertson for years chasing me down with true heart. Then Scott got rid of his stable of SV's and upgraded to his DS. On my best days I'm a top 5 finisher, on my worst I'm top 10. Overall if I make a mistake of any kind Scott will pass me with one or two laps to go deep into the HW Class. I never cared if he went by simply because he was not in my class but the fact the his machine and him could run me down and pass a GSXR 750.....that's not a LW bike.      Steve
Title: Re: 2009 rule change request
Post by: roadracer162 on November 04, 2008, 09:11:08 PM
Well Steve, I know your meaning. Scott and I have been pretty equal but I do think that he has a little more skill than me. There are many more that are much faster than I. Chris Boy comes to mind. I have found that my stock FZR600 was very equal to the SV. Once I built the FZR motor, so did Scott on the SV and found they are pretty equal there too. I also believe that the built FZR600 is pretty equal to the stock Ducati 1000DS, but it is no competition for the Superbike DS, or Bimotas of the lightweight class.

Mark