SV vs. TZ Question

[TZDeSioux]

Roach,
I totally agree with you.. I think TZ's racing against SV whether it's built or not is more than fair. The only reason why I think racing against middleweight bikes is unfair is because we have the unfair advantage when racing against them. Maybe it's just me but if I get stuck behind a pack of 600's that are circulating a second or two slower than I am.. it's almost impossible for me to get by them due to different lines and cornering speeds. I've heard this from quite a few competent 250 riders as well. I also believe that the best riders are not riding 250 GP bikes..atleast at the regional level.

Dave,
The question here isn't whether a TZ should be able to do 13-15's at blackhawk but have you seen anyone do that. Mark Stiles is probably the fastest 250 rider in our region. I believe he does 17's.  Also talked to Aaron Rentschler and he told me his best time at blackhawk was 17s. And both of those guys are no slouches.  It also goes back to whether a TZ should run with the 600's. Can we really go as fast as we can when we run against 600's? I even doubt Oliver or Sorenson would be able to run their normal pace if they were thrown in the AMA supersport race. Anyway, my reason for riding a TZ isn't because I want to go change the world or set any track records. I want to have the most fun as possible and I can't think of any bike that would give me the same enjoyment as riding a 250 GP bike and if at the same time I can do well.. then that's a bonus.

[TZ_Boy]

Brian, Stiles is who I timed doing 17's.  If TZ's were allowed into GTL's the results would be the same as LGP which TZ's do not run away with.  I agree the fastest riders are riding 600's because that is were the money is.  I sold my GSXR1000 to race 250's for fun.  My point is there is no reason to keep TZ's out of GTL's.  I don't believe a TZ can do 13's at BHF, Kevin Gordon did ask to ride my TZ last year that would be a good guage as to how fast it can go althouth he does tend to crash from time to time.

[Monty925]

My opinion after racing a '94,'93 and '00 TZ250 over the past 2 1/2 years... If you are a halfway decent rider you should have no problem beating SV's at any track.

I rode both my '00 TZ in WERA National F2 and a pretty nice SV650 in the WERA National LW Endurance respectively.  At most tracks I was 4-7 seconds a lap faster on the TZ.  A SV usually won the drag race to T1 but they never led more than the first lap.

I ran a '93 TZ in '01 at Summit in LWGP and MWGP.  The SV's would usually lead me into T1 but I'd be by them half a lap later or at least on the front straight.  
In MWGP there was one weekend in particular where Randy Renfrow won, Chris Pyles took second and I snared third out of a grid over over 25 600's including Rick Beggs on his Kaw600 and Fred Stucky on his Duc748.  We were all on 250's.

You can brake harder and later on a 250, you can corner faster and should be able to accelerate faster.  A 250 is over 100lbs lighter and in a very mild state of tune should make over 70hp.  
How could you not beat a bike that weighs 100lbs more?  

A 240lb bike with 70hp gives you a 3.4:1 hp to weight ratio.  If a SV weighs 350lbs and makes 80hp that's a 4.375:1 hp to weight ratio.   To get an SV in the 250 power to weight ratio it would have to weigh 340lbs and put out 100hp.  A good 600 against a good 250 is a much better race than a good 250 against a good SV.

I think riding a 250 teaches you far more than riding a SV.  You learn how to use the BRAKES, not rely on engine compression to slow you down.
You learn how to keep a bike in its powerband, not rely on gobs of torque to get your lazy butt moving.
At Jennings GP I counted 17 shifts per lap on the TZ
but just 4, FOUR, on the SV.  (I was 5 seconds faster on the TZ)
You learn throttle control (sorry Roach, not aimed at you buddy!), on a SV you just weight the outer peg and try and twist the grip of the bar.
When you make adjustments to the ride height or suspension on a 250 you FEEL the change.  Most people could let the air out the back tire on a SV and wouldn't know the difference.
A 250 gives you feedback much quicker than a streetbike.  When a 250 starts spinning the rear, you know it right then.  A mushy street bike can start spinning the rear and it seems to happen in slow motion.

These are my opinions.  You can take 'em or leave 'em.  Me?  I'd much rather race my 250 in GTL than GTU if there's money on the line.

[Roach]

You learn throttle control (sorry Roach, not aimed at you buddy!)

Oh, I learned a lot about throttle control that day. I also learned about track elevation, and the effects it has on your flight as it falls away from you :(

These are my opinions.  You can take 'em or leave 'em.  Me?  I'd much rather race my 250 in GTL than GTU if there's money on the line.

Heh... you know you're right... I should be agreeing with this rather than disputing it. Let 250's in GTL!! (You can never have too many trophies, can you?) :D
That, and pistons paid for by the purse would be pretty sweet.

Seriously TZ_Boy, out here (right coast) there are quite a few talented 250 riders that would destroy GTL. Most of them race the WERA National series, but they do show up at the regionals (WERA and CCS) from time to time.

- Roach

[chris_chops]

I tend to agree with roach, as the tz hovers between a lw and mw bike depending on state of tune and rider.  It brings up the whole issue of class structure, hp limits, weight limits, etc..  A real tz makes 90hp, right?  So a real tz wouldn't be a lw in my book, but a 62 hp could be close.  Then some hotshot rider would take a 62hp bike like superducks and rail the whole gtl crowd.  Everyone would get in a huff and the whole debate would go on and on again.  I believe the average tz rider is stuck with no where to go.  No class to compete fairly in.  My two cents.

Matt

[Roach]

A real tz makes 90hp, right?  So a real tz wouldn't be a lw in my book, but a 62 hp could be close.

Anyone with a 250 making 62 hp needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to a class on jetting :)

Mildly tuned (as in, I don't worry about it seizing... ever), my TZ makes 78hp and weighs 225lbs.

- Roach

[Super Dave]

Yeah, 62HP.  I fully expect my 1975 H1 in relatively stock trim with pipes and carbs to be making 65HP.  With some work, we can probably get it to 80HP.

Tuning?  That's the owner's responsibility, not the class structure.  

Mark is now slouch, but he wieighs more than me, and I'm sure he expects that he can go faster.  He's caring for more than one bike too.  Takes a lot out of you.  I have to deal with lots of bikes.  Beats the death out of me.

My times?  Fastest I turned at Blackhawk was a 1:13 something or another.  Last year I couldn't do anything faster than a 14 with my balance and hearing problems.  Denning and I played with each other in the 15's and 16's all day during the Team Challenge.

A TZ250 is a Lightweight Grand Prix bike.  A Lightweight Supersport SV650 that bumps into LWGP should get spanked.

A TZ250 IS a race bike.  An SV650 is a street bike.  There is a huge difference.  Everyone says how the new 600 something from brand what ever is a race bike.  No, they aren't, they are street bikes.  But you'd have to have ridden a TZ250 at a real fast pace to understand the difference.  

As for comparing Oliver's TZ and Mladin's Superbike with your TZ and a regional GSXR750.  That's not a good analogy.

Before the chicane between the carousel and four, Michael Hunter hoovered near the lap record, might have even broke it, right at the 1:11 to 1:12 mark.  It was finally set in 1991 by Andy Fenwick riding a Bimota Dieci that used a Yamaha FZR1000 motor.  I think it was a 1:11.91, which is pretty much the same as what Steve Johnson did on the Tul-laris this year, eleven years later.

To compare AMA 250's with AMA Superbikes, at a long track, sure the Superbike would win, time wise.  Put 'em on a short track, the 250 can be faster.  At Heartland Park in 1991, John Kosinski held the outright lap record over all the Superbikes (Russell, DuHammel, etc.).

Now compare a TZ250 RACE BIKE against a Middleweight or Heavyweight Supersport bike (STREET BIKE).  The 250 should be right there, given a reasonable state of tune and a motivated rider.

As for me jumping on a 250 and doing 13's.  Not that easy.  It takes some time to become accustomed to a 250.  A 250 rider could jump on a 600 and laugh about how mushy is all is and do pretty decently.  

[TZDeSioux]

 Then some hotshot rider would take a 62hp bike like superducks and rail the whole gtl crowd.

62hp? That's Wuytack's Aprilia man.. not my TZ. My TZ made 52 HP.  :)

[Super Dave]

52HP?  What's up there?  What fuel are you using?  The track junk?  We need to talk.  I'd bet my 1982 TZ made more than that.  The CB400F I raced for a guy made 55HP.  LOL! ;D

[TZDeSioux]

52HP?  What's up there?  What fuel are you using?  The track junk?  We need to talk.  I'd bet my 1982 TZ made more than that.  The CB400F I raced for a guy made 55HP.  LOL! ;D

LOL  ;D no way I wouldnt put that track junk in my bike. I used VP MR8 and Nutec GP2 and on a good day... I made 52hp. ;) The 03 should hopefully make 85 stock. I'm going to do some 16's on that darn thing. You watch and see.  :-/

[Super Dave]

What dyno?  That really just seems wrong.  Whether the new on makes 85HP will still be contingent upon tuning.  Were you working the tuning alot on the "old one".  It wasn't that old.  Seems like Mark eventually got to 70 or so on the Factory Pro dyno at RA, which is real HP, and will be several HP lower than a Dynojet Dyno.  

Doc made like 50 something, and they sent him away to lean the bike out about five sizes.

[TZDeSioux]

What dyno?  That really just seems wrong.  Whether the new on makes 85HP will still be contingent upon tuning.  Were you working the tuning alot on the "old one".  It wasn't that old.  Seems like Mark eventually got to 70 or so on the Factory Pro dyno at RA, which is real HP, and will be several HP lower than a Dynojet Dyno.  

Doc made like 50 something, and they sent him away to lean the bike out about five sizes.

Dave,
I was just kidding. My bike was a rocket. On it's only run on a Factory Dyno.. it made 72. The bike was run by Norifumi Abe's Dad in the all Japan 250GP series in 98 and 99 before it came to the states. My lack of success this last season isn't from my bike being slow.. it's from me being slow  ;D My bike was also very easy to tune. Run it 2 sizes rich and you can run it all weekend without changing the mains unless there's a dramatic change in air density. I'm not a big fan of squeezing every little ounce of power out of the bike atleast at this level. I feel I should be able to do the deed running it slightly on the rich side. The thing about running leaded fuel on a 97+ year TZ is that you have to advance the static timing on it quite a bit and run higher compression heads and/or run positive deckheight do get any kind of grunt out of the motor. The problem with this was that the leaner I went .. more detonation I would get. So it was always safe and cheaper to sacrafice a few horsies and run  two or so sizes rich.