SV vs. TZ Question

Started by ColoradoTZ, December 27, 2002, 05:12:58 AM

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Monty925

QuoteWow, that seems like a lot of timing.

Why so little oil, 30:1?  I do love the smell of A747 in the morning.
30:1 is what Yamaha recommeds.  Depending on the air we'll richen the mixture just a little to be safe.
Same with the timing on the new bikes, we are very close if not at the stock timing.  The bike makes plenty of power, I just try to hang on.

Super Dave

A two stroke motor can still run at 6:1.  Optimum power is at around 13:1.  20:1 is still great power without all the mess of the heavier mixtures.  As you diminish from there, heat and friction occur.  And that means that the parts wear more.

Definitely worth trying.  If you do it, increase the jet size to maintain the amount of fuel going in, but it sounds like you might have a handle on that.

You said, "Depending on the air we'll richen the mixture just a little to be safe."  Can you clarify exactly before we all seize?
Super Dave

Monty925

QuoteA two stroke motor can still run at 6:1.  Optimum power is at around 13:1.  20:1 is still great power without all the mess of the heavier mixtures.  As you diminish from there, heat and friction occur.  And that means that the parts wear more.

Definitely worth trying.  If you do it, increase the jet size to maintain the amount of fuel going in, but it sounds like you might have a handle on that.

You said, "Depending on the air we'll richen the mixture just a little to be safe."  Can you clarify exactly before we all seize?
First let me state that I am a firm believer in sticking to what works for each individual.  I keep pretty detailed notes and use the Tracktimer software, www.tracktimer.com, a Davis Perception II weather station and an Accumix Jug.

My tuner Eric Knight and I spent the better part of a track day in '01 finding what we felt to be the "perfect" jetting for that day's air.  We monitor temp, humidity and barometeric pressure.  We always use the Davis PII even though it tends to read temp a few degrees warm, it allows us a constistant reading.

The Tracktimer software has a jetting guru where you enter the air conditions and jetting you found to be optimal.  That creates your base for all future jetting.  Depending on how the air changes the guru makes the appropriate recommendation and hasn't failed us yet.  Yamaha also provided a chart in the back of most TZ manuals that allow the mathletes in us to do the calculation for jetting vs. Relative Air Density but I find the jetting guru much faster.

The software also automatically tracks mileage for every part I specify with alarms when they reach their service limit.  Allows me to input suspension settings for every track we go to, allows us to input internal and external gear ratios with tire circumference so you can see what the rear wheel speed is in each gear at what rpm, pretty cool!

The Accumix Jug is idiot proof.  Fill the big side of the container to a predetermined level, it's graduated to 10 units or a total of about 1.5 gallons.
If you fill the big side to 8 units, you find the mix ratio you want on the small side and fill it to 8 units and viola! you have the perfect mixture.  We have had success with the 30:1 but if the bike is running higher than 62 degrees or there is not good air, usually when the RAD is 90% or below, I'll add one extra unit of oil to the mix.  8 for fuel, 9 for oil for example.

I haven't dynoed this bike yet.  I dynoed my '94 on the Harley of Frederick Dynojet and it posted 74hp.  I didn't really optimize the jetting that bike had nothing special in the way of work.  My best guess on my 2000 is in the mid 80's.  At most of the WERA Nationals this year I could hang with most every 600 on the straights without the use of the draft.  I weigh 185lb before race gear so I'm not exactly the model TZ rider.

At Summit during the WERA National practice I was playing with Brad Champion and Bernie Hunt of MB Motorsports fame as well as Dave Yaakov and his killer SV and it was just plain silly how much faster the TZ was than their SV's.  Anyone who has seen these guys ride know they have some of the faster SV's around.

TZDeSioux

#51
Dave,
the first thing that I will do when I take delivery of the bike is send the suspension to LE to get some work done. Then I'm going to split the cases and clean it up, knock out any nikisil, and match the cylinders to the case.

And speaking of mixtures... I ran 32:1 all year. Garry Hayes even recommended 40:1 which I never did for the fear of seizing.

TZ_Boy

Monty, I agree the TZ is a superior machine to an SV and that it teaches you how to ride that is why I am racing one.  But currently in the CCS we only have one class to be competitive in.  SV's have 5 classes that they are fairly competitive in and do better against the 600's than the TZ's.  I think this is because the SV is better at passing packs of parked bikes in the corners in the first few laps. If you and the talented east coast 250 riders raced in the CCS you did not do well in GTU because there were 0 wins an almost no top 5 finishes nationally for 250's in that class.  I am just looking at the statistics/facts not hypothetical sitiuations our rare situations.  If the TZ is a superior bike compared to a 600 as MR. Elliot believes than why does it finish so poorly against them?  I am new to racing and respect what you and Dave have to say I just don't understand why TZ's can not race in GTL's.

Monty925

QuoteMonty, I agree the TZ is a superior machine to an SV and that it teaches you how to ride that is why I am racing one.  But currently in the CCS we only have one class to be competitive in.  SV's have 5 classes that they are fairly competitive in and do better against the 600's than the TZ's.  I think this is because the SV is better at passing packs of parked bikes in the corners in the first few laps. If you and the talented east coast 250 riders raced in the CCS you did not do well in GTU because there were 0 wins an almost no top 5 finishes nationally for 250's in that class.  I am just looking at the statistics/facts not hypothetical sitiuations our rare situations.  If the TZ is a superior bike compared to a 600 as MR. Elliot believes than why does it finish so poorly against them?  I am new to racing and respect what you and Dave have to say I just don't understand why TZ's can not race in GTL's.
I didn't race any CCS stuff this year because I was doing the WERA Nationals.  
I have run CCS in the past and in a GTU would usually start from the back of about 30 or so bikes and worked my way up inside the top 10 just about every time, that was on my '93.
The reason more of the talent is on the 600's is they can win money in lots of classes.  You can't win dick on a 250 except tire money.  Most of the guys and girls who run the 250's are racing for fun, not money.  With that in mind, a majority of those racing for fun don't push as hard as the 600 rider racing for money and therefore the rider racing for fun more often than not won't fight as hard for a win.
If you can ride around a pack of parked bikes on an SV, you should be able to SMOKE around a pack of parked bikes on a 250.

Every region has it's tendencies based on local track experts.  I've never seen (in expert class mind you) a SV do well against the 600's at Summit or VIR.

When you get better on your TZ, you'll see why they shouldn't be allowed in GTL.  When you start to get good on it you can have an "off" day and still whip the rest of most GTL grids.  It's also much more rewarding to ride your ass off and beat the lions share of 600's in MWGP and GTU on a good 250.

Lastly, most of the good 250 riders from the Mid Atlantic (Brian Kcraget, Donnie Tingle, myself) went WERA racing this year.  Chris Pyles did AMA and the Himmelsbachs didn't ride the 250's much, especially with Bill getting hurt at VIR.

Believe me, I am all for trying to keep the 250 class alive and growing with talent but more and more people are taking the SV/600 route because there are more classes and contingency money available.

I am trying to get WERA to amend their C-Superbike rules to be like CCS MWGP.  They both allow slicks and are pretty loose as far as the allowable mods.  Why not let the 250's in?  The majority of the fast guys are still gonna run the 600's anyway because of the money, let us mix it up with them.  It'll make the 250 riders learn to ride better and if we start beating the 600 guys, it will make them step up their game.

Out of curiousity, have you raced at
Putnam?
Summit?
VIR?
Texas World?
Roebling?
North Florida?
No Problem?
Road Atlanta?
Daytona?

if so, what kind of times did you do?  what about the fast SV's?  any idea about the 600's?

Thanks for the response!

TZ_Boy

Monty,  I got the TZ last year and it was my first time racing so I only raced at the local Mid-west tracks.  Formula USA is allowing 250's into the superbike class which is against 600's.  

Monty925

QuoteMonty,  I got the TZ last year and it was my first time racing so I only raced at the local Mid-west tracks.  Formula USA is allowing 250's into the superbike class which is against 600's.  
Are you going to do the series?
If so, good luck.  You'll have fun and learn a lot.
Look at it this way.  Racing against 600's there will always be somebody to chase and learn from.  Racing against SV's you'll only learn enough to get in front of them and then you won't have anyone else to chase!

Roach

QuoteWhen you get better on your TZ, you'll see why they shouldn't be allowed in GTL.  When you start to get good on it you can have an "off" day and still whip the rest of most GTL grids.  It's also much more rewarding to ride your ass off and beat the lions share of 600's in MWGP and GTU on a good 250.

To add to what Monty is saying here... my experience racing my TZ is the same.

I didn't race the TZ at all in 2001 because we were focussing on the Aprilia Cup series. I run top-5 expert in regional WERA and CCS LW classes on a *Aprilia Cup bike*. I unfortunatly crashed hard in 2002 getting back up to speed on my TZ and prepping for my first AMA race :(  

If I ride the TZ and am having a good day, there's only maybe a handfull of people (who are *much* better riders) that can beat me on an SV  - Yakov, Champion, prob also Romeo and Sabastian but they would be closer. And they never all show up to the same race. If I was a better rider (say... Monty, Brian, or Donnie) .. it wouldn't be a contest.

If I run MWGP, I'm mid-pack... exactly where I'd be if I had a 600 (I've raced a 600 in WERA endurance, and I'm faster on the TZ... but I think that has more to do with being a better two-stroke rider and not having a lot of 600 experience).

When I was a novice, Bill Cole and I used to start at the back of GTL on our *125's* and get to the front. The 250 would just have been silly.

- Roach

Litespeed

Get a TZ125, then you can run in the LW classes.  Your maintenance costs get cut in half and from what I can tell, a set of tires should last nearly an entire season.

badmonkey

I watched Ben Walters last year at Roebling Road riding for Rocky Stargel on a TZ250 barely loose to Rich Conicelli on a gsxr750 in UnlimitedGP. Ben was gridded on the 5th row and took the lead by lap 2. He lost the race because the rear had too many races alreay on it. They were turning high 1:14's low 15's. It comes down to rider, everything else is just an excuse....
Do you want to touch my Monkey?

TZ_Boy

QuoteErr... no offense, but a good 250 rider is going to suck the paint of any SV. Or actually, better to say that with equally skilled riders the TZ wins.
- Roach
::)
Roach as in Brian Roach #699?  I only found 1 race that you raced in the CCS it was LGP at Summit Point.  You finished 8th out of 20 behind 4 SV's, you did manage to beat 1 SV. ;D