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SV vs. TZ Question

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ColoradoTZ

SV vs. TZ Question
« on: December 27, 2002, 05:12:58 am »
Hi All,

New to the board.  I currently race with the MRA in Colorado on a '91 TZ250, previously raced an R6 and before that in the late 80s, GSXRs....

I have a question that maybe you can help me out with.

Our club recently changed some rules that affect our TZ/RS two-smoke racers. Our Formula II Class (250 two-stroke GP Class) was dropped due to low turn-out numbers. They created a LightWeight GP Class.  This class puts TZs with SV which can be pumped to 700cc (There are some other bikes allowed as well, but it appears the SVs are probably the biggest contenders)

The club said that other clubs around the country have a similar class and that the SVs and TZs produce some good racing.

So, if anyone here has any info (firsthand would be best) on how the SVs and TZs race go meaning does one have a clear advantage or even a slight advantage given equal riders it would be appreciated.

My issue is that if the SVs are just as competitive as the TZs, I'm considering making a switch.  I can't see the point of the constant maintenance and costs of running a TZ if an SV performs the same without the constant top-end changes, crank rebuilds, etc....

Thanks for any help!!!!!!!!
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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2002, 05:30:28 am »
I have raced both and I can tell you that the SV is a heavier bike so it does not turn as well, but it is much easier to ride, so you can push it to the limits easier and in turn sometimes you go faster.

The TZ is a superior track bike though. A good rider on a TZ can beat himself on an SV if he can ride them both to their limits. I would bet money that if Rich Oliver got on an SV, he could not match his TZ times, no matter how built the SV was. At BIR, the fastest rider on his SV does 1:49's-50's. Rich Oliver qualified at a 1:43 this year.


When I switched bikes I improved my lap times greatly. Not immediately, but after a couple of weekends once I got more used to the bike.
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Edgar Dorn #81 - Numbskullz Racing, Mason Racin Tires, Michelin, Lithium Motorsports



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Super Dave

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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2002, 06:33:14 am »
The TZ is a race bike.  So, in the finest hands, it will go faster than a street bike, an SV.  You can pump up the SV a whole lot, but the TZ is easier to work on.  But the TZ needs a bit more fiddling with.

In Colorado, you could do really well on one of the Sherrit's (SP?) TZ's, but the SV might be more versitile.  Regardless, they are both fun.

I'm sure that you could get one of the Turner boys to ride a TZ close to the lap record at some place like Second Creek, but I think it might be harder on a Super SV.  Again, weight, etc.
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TZDeSioux

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2002, 06:42:35 am »
What's more fun to ride? I can't imagine that there's a bike out there that is more fun to ride than a 250 GP bike. The cost of maintaining a GP bike is irrelevant when you think of what it costs to get a street bike race ready. For example my 03 TZ cost me $18,000 but it comes race ready with a full season's worth of consumable parts. Now you buy a new GSXR for $9000. Dump 5k into it to get it fully race prepped. Then drop a few more grand for spares and you've spent damn near the cost of a TZ.

As far as being competetive against SVs? Didn't Oliver qualify only a few tenths of a second slower than Tommy Hayden on the ZX6R at Road America last year? We're talking at the track where horsepower rules all. I think with a proper rider on a TZ.. there's no way an SV should be able to run with it. Unfortunately for myself and some others, we're in the infant stages of learning how to ride it properly. Maybe in a few years, I can answer this question with first hand knowledge.
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Super Dave

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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2002, 06:59:27 am »
Bam, Brian, you're hitting it on the head.

The TZ is a REAL race bike.  Look how much it takes to make a REAL supersport bike for AMA stuff....about $25k.  And when you're done racing it, it's worth about $7k.  

And it sure ain't made for workin' on.

I raced a TZ250 many moons ago.  Simple in design, but it was so fun to ride because it was always so pi$$ed!  (Hummel cylinders, no exhaust valve.  This was before reed valves....)

Guess that's why I'm building an H1.  Simple.  It will be pi$$ed too!  It will just have a lot narrower rims.
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TZDeSioux

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2002, 07:01:57 am »
Quote


Guess that's why I'm building an H1.  Simple.  It will be pi$$ed too!  It will just have a lot narrower rims.


Wire spoked rims? I like wire rims. By the way.. Rick Merhar says hello.
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ColoradoTZ

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2002, 08:06:52 am »
Thanks so far for all the advice and opinions!

Let me rephrase or narrow down my question abit as well as add additional comments.  Forget about guys like Oliver, Hayden, and the top flight "Pros". What about the average club racer on these bikes in your club?  What have you seen/experieced?

When I raced an R6, like anything else I was able to improve my speed and limits and got my times to a respectible level in our club.  When I switched to the TZ it took and is still taking time to get down to the same lap times.  I'm off by about 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap slower on the TZ depending on the track (Can't just use acceleration anymore).  :)  So, while I find the TZ fun I'm finding it harder to get my times down to what I was turning on the R6.

I definitely agree that setup cost to turn a streetbike into a racebike is alot higher than one would think having done that several times.  But my intent would be to buy a race-ready SV as opposed to building one.  I've seen a few race ready SVs for around 5k.  

One of my other questions is; "Is one easier to ride one than the other to extract performance from", do you have to ride one harder than the other to turn similar lap times"?, meaning, for me on the TZ,  I have to ride closer to my limits on it than the R6 to turn "fast" lap times.  I know that real good racers can ride that way and extract every once of performance out of a bike", but I'm a good racer not great and nowhere nears AMA quality not even privateer...

Regarding your comment Super_duck, your point of view is the same point of view that my friend who races TZs takes.  He figures its about the same costs to run the TZ as a four stroke.  We've had that discussion several times over.  But he always figures in a valve job and some top end work at the end of the season then an engine freshening mid season on a four stroke....

From my personal experience, it still costs way more to run the TZ than a converted streetbike.  Once I had my R6 in race trim I was able to run it for two full seasons with no work other than P.M., my friend who wrenches checked a few times a season and other than valve adjustments the bike needed nothing.  I carried some spares but did not "stock up" on any and as it turned out in two seasons of racing I never needed any. So other than the usual race expenses; gas, oil, tires, etc, there was no additional expenses.

My TZ on the other hand;

4 Top-ends;  These cost me approximately 150 a set so 600 bucks.

Re-nickasil of two of my jugs at 125 a piece 250 bucks.

Crank rebuild - 600 bucks at 1200 miles (And this is making sure I don't go to too many test and tune days or it I'll reach that mark before the end of the season)

Clutch plates et all - 150 bucks.

Misc consumables like gaskets when I take the heads off to examine the pistons, circ clips, rubber rings for the heads, etc, figure another 100 bucks.

So, just the basics to keep the TZ running not including all the other items you consume in a race season is 1700 bucks.  

So, from my personal experience it has cost more to run the TZ.  

And lets be honest, if you check around the pit area you'll find that unless its the top notch racers most club racers do the basic maintenance on their bike and don't tear down the motor to inspect wear and the like.  I think most pretty much do the same as I did with my R6.  Take good care of it, address problems if they arise, but don't typically spend more than they have to, to ensure a safe and reliable "ride".

With that said, I agree the TZ is a blast to ride.  Nothing like it I've ever raced.  

But without the Formula II class where everyone has to "work" to keep their bikes at its peak, I began/begin to wonder if I can get away with something like the SV with less work/maintenace and still finish well....

Of course it comes down to money.  I mean if that wasn't an issue we'd all be racing whatever we wanted, but the reality is some or most of us have a budget we try to work within. Some are smaller or larger than others....

Thanks again and I sincerely appreciate your input! :)
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TZDeSioux

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2002, 08:29:09 am »
Well in the LWGP class in just about every region.. the first thing you will notice is the overabundance of SV's and the lack of 250 GP bikes. Regardless of the number of GP bikes on the grid, I think it is very competitive against the SV's. Correct me if I'm wrong guys but  I believe our fastest SV guy and TZ guy run just about the same lap times at our local track(BHF). But we also have to run against 600 inline fours in MWGP and GTU because we are not allowed to run against the SV's in GTL. It's not fair for the 250GP riders but according to Kevin Elliot, he thinks that a good rider on a good TZ should be faster than a good rider on a good 600.  ::) When's the last time you saw a guy on a 250GP bike come to BHF and win a middleweight race? How many 250GP guys can run 13's there? Anyway, I think it's fair to run us against modified SV's, FZR's, and the big ass buells but totally unfair for us to have to run against the inline 4 600's.
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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2002, 09:30:05 am »
Hey Brian,

Have you ridden an SV? They are a blast to ride. You can take mine out if you want while I am riding your new 2003 TZ.

:D ;D ;D
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Edgar Dorn #81 - Numbskullz Racing, Mason Racin Tires, Michelin, Lithium Motorsports



Don't give up on your dreams! If an illiterate like K3 can write a book, imagine what you can do!

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TZDeSioux

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2002, 09:39:08 am »
Quote
Hey Brian,

Have you ridden an SV? They are a blast to ride. You can take mine out if you want while I am riding your new 2003 TZ.

:D ;D ;D


I've sat on one but never actually taken one out. I have this weird thing about riding someone else's bike. I'm scared to ride other people's bike for some reason. Maybe I think I'm going to crash it. Your bike is fast.. that much I know. Actually Lucente's bike is pretty damn fast too.

I'll let you ride my new bike once I get it all worked out. I'll give you 3 laps on the darn thing. How's that sound? But you have to come to a friday practice.
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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2002, 09:58:54 am »
Wooooooh, finally broke down, huh?

;D

Sure, 3 laps is plenty. I just want to see how much they have improved since the 90's model I have. Friday is fine with me...

Rhianna said to me that her bike's motor was almost stock. I didn't know FZR's were that fast out of the box. She claims it was her weight advantage...suuuure ;)
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Edgar Dorn #81 - Numbskullz Racing, Mason Racin Tires, Michelin, Lithium Motorsports



Don't give up on your dreams! If an illiterate like K3 can write a book, imagine what you can do!

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Super Dave

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Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2002, 10:46:44 am »
Yes, a TZ250 should kick my butt at Blackhawk.  That's a fact.  I have seen very few guys ride TZ like they should be ridden at the local level.  

The last guy at Blackhawk that did well on a TZ was Michael Hunter.  He was always chasing the lap record.  At AMA events he did respetfully.  Nothing stellar, but he did well.

A TZ is not an easy beast to ride fast.  A 600 is pretty tame and mushie compared to the knife edged performance of a TZ.  There is so much feed back on the TZ, it overwhelms one's senses, and then you go slower that on a 600.

The SV is in the same league as the 600.  Relatively tame.  

You're maintenance pretty much sounds like what I've done for years.

Race Ready bikes?  Be careful.  A race bike is not just an assembly of parts.  Often, it seems like that's what they are listed as.  But then they are assembled incorrectly by a person that has no mechanical ability.  In my school I work with experienced racers too.  So many times, a guy I work with will show up with a new "race bike" he bought that is all wrong.  

There are good ones out there.  I hope the guys that buy mine like them.  But just try to get all the information you can.  I supply any notes with the bike that I made over the period that I had it.  And I offer on going support and usually a school program.  

Improved since '90's?  LOL!  Mine was a TZ250J - 1982.  Brian, bring your TZ to me... ;D ::) ??? 8) :o :o
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