SV vs. TZ Question

[TZ_Boy]

I did a little homework.  After looking at all 8 regions, Pacific, Mid-Atlantic, Florida, Great Lakes, Great Plains, Mid-West, Southwest, and Southeast I found the top 5 class points leaders Am and EX for LGP.
There were 48 SV's', 15 250's, 9 FZR's, 5 125's, and 3 Beull's.  This clearly shows that SV's dominate LGP in the CCS.  If TZ's were allowed to race in GTL's SV's would still dominate the class as they do in LGP.

[Monty925]

I did a little homework.  After looking at all 8 regions, Pacific, Mid-Atlantic, Florida, Great Lakes, Great Plains, Mid-West, Southwest, and Southeast I found the top 5 class points leaders Am and EX for LGP.
There were 48 SV's', 15 250's, 9 FZR's, 5 125's, and 3 Beull's.  This clearly shows that SV's dominate LGP in the CCS.  If TZ's were allowed to race in GTL's SV's would still dominate the class as they do in LGP.

Dominate in shear numbers or performance?

Consider this:
Last year only 14 '02 TZ250's came into the states.  How many SV's do you think came in and were sold?
500? 1000? 1500?  Going back to the early 90's Yamaha only brought in 20-30 250's per year.  
There should be a greater number of SV's at any given track than 250's.  Just the '02 SV sales should top ten years of Yamaha importing TZ's.

Why don't you go look up the WERA F2 National Challenge results and see how the mighty SV's fared there.

There is no sense in starting a WERA vs CCS comparison but the reason I chose to do the WERA stuff is there weren't any fast CCS regulars in LGP to push me.  The fastest SV's that regularly run Summit lap in the 1:21's to 23's at Summit and 1:37's to 39's at VIR.  Me and Donnie Tingle easily do 20's and 19's at Summit and drop into the high 17's and 18's when pushed.  At VIR we have off days and do 35's, 33's and occassionally 32's when motivated.
 
So in OUR region I we don't really have to try to beat all the SV's at CCS events therefore I'm not going to waste my money for a soft win.
If the CCS website would let you look at '01 results you'd see that Donnie and I were usually 1-2 in LGP.  You can go look at WERA Mid Atlantic results from '01 and see for yourself. What it won't show is that we had a 8-10 second lead after 6-8 laps.

It almost sounds like you are trying to justify ditching your TZ and getting an SV.  If you do, try to get a ride with a WERA LW Endurance team and enter the F2 Nationals while you are at it.  I'll be the black and orange TZ with the #1 on it.  I should be at all the rounds except for Talledega.  Look me up.

[TZ_Boy]

It almost sounds like you are trying to justify ditching your TZ and getting an SV.  If you do, try to get a ride with a WERA LW Endurance team and enter the F2 Nationals while you are at it.  I'll be the black and orange TZ with the #1 on it.  I should be at all the rounds except for Talledega.  Look me up.

I am definitely not ditching my TZ this may be the first bike that I keep because Yamaha will stop making them soon.  This would be the only bike that I would race.  As far as sheer numbers are concernerd it only takes a few TZ's to finish in the top of LGP to dominate the class but they don't.  In the Mid-west, Great Lakes, and Great Plains division which are the same riders, a Buell and an SV are the fastest in LGP.  Fast TZ riders are in the AMA and WERA not the CCS.  Monty you are the exception to the rule in CCS and should not set the standard for the rest of us.  Out of 16 division champs in LGP Am and EX only 3 were 250's and 10 were SV's.  All I am saying is that at the CCS level TZ's should be allowed in GTL's.

[badmonkey]

using that logic everybody who is too slow in there current class should be able to race down 1 class to make it fair? ??? ??? ??? ???

[Super Dave]

using that logic everybody who is too slow in there current class should be able to race down 1 class to make it fair? ??? ??? ??? ???

I agree.  We don't need affirmitive action in racing....

TZ Boy, there are enough of us that have been around racing for quite some time.  A TZ250 is not a GT Lights bike.  A TZ250 can win GTU, MWGP, and should still do well in ULGP.  They did win ULGP races at Blackhawk at one time.  As for what happens at Blackhawk now, that is the responsibiliy of the riders and tuners.  The 250 riders and tuners at Blackhawk know that they are not riding their 250's to the full capability, period.  

As for if Kevin Elliott knows anything about racing...he's a former racer himself having raced small production bikes and full bore 1000cc superbikes.  I support TZ250's in LWGP.  They fit.

An SV is an easy starter bike.  With a few bucks, you can buy it, put it together, turn key and race.  A TZ is not so simple.  Monty uses software to properly and completely operate his at reasonable, maximum effiency.  There should be bunches of them on grids.  By default, because of the length of the series and numbers, they will do well better than most bikes.

TZ Boy, you state that it only takes a few TZ's to dominate.  You've got to put the responsibility in the seat;  it takes a rider in the seat to dominate.  That's why Ed Key is fast in the Midwest region's LW racing.  The bike is only part of the equation.  And even then, it must be tuned reasonably.  If that is not happening, then the results that we have occur.

[TZ_Boy]

TZ Boy, there are enough of us that have been around racing for quite some time.  A TZ250 is not a GT Lights bike.  A TZ250 can win GTU, MWGP, and should still do well in ULGP.  They did win ULGP races at Blackhawk at one time.  

Out of 240 races nationally in the CCS am and Ex for GTU and MWGP there were no TZ wins!  You can shoulda coulda woulda all day long but these are the results.  The average TZ in the CCS makes around 70hp if this makes it a middleweight bike ok.  I am done beating this dead horse.

[Roach]

Out of 240 races nationally in the CCS am and Ex for GTU and MWGP there were no TZ wins!  You can shoulda coulda woulda all day long but these are the results.  The average TZ in the CCS makes around 70hp if this makes it a middleweight bike ok.  I am done beating this dead horse.

It's a dead horse because you keep ignoring the facts. You keep looking at results of *riders*, which means absolutly nothing - it has no bearing on the capability of 250gp machines in a given class.

The reason the bike is excluded from GTL is because with a skilled rider, it WILL beat any SV on the track. Period. Just because you and many other club-level 250 riders don't have the skill to do so is irrelevent.  The bike is more than capable.

If I sucked at riding a 600, should I be allowed to race it in GTL? No. Because the bike is capable of winning. If you had an SV, would you be winning every race? Sure sounds like it  ::)
 
You also ignore others' posts. Like the one where I said I haven't raced my TZ in two years in leu of racing my 310lbs 60hp Aprilia Cup bike (the one you quote me finishing 8th on, from the back of the pack of a 20 rider race). Try checking out the FUSA Aprilia Cup results. This year, I took myself out of the season in July. I think the last race I did was in June at Summit Point, where I finished 5th in D-Superbike (same rules as GTL in CCS). Again, on a 310lbs 60hp Aprilia. I'm about 4 seconds a lap faster on my TZ. Of course, in 2000 when I was riding it, I won the Mid-Atlantic regional F2 class on my TZ.

I've also stated that the reason I don't win expert LWGP or F2 races has absolutly nothing to do with my TZ. It has everything to do with the guy on top of it not being the most skilled rider. You see... I accept that fact.

- Roach

[TZDeSioux]

Let me clarify something here.  TZ_Boy is not slow. The guy won his first race ever at Road America. He could win a race at any given time so what he's preaching isn't based on his inability to go fast. He is fast.

[Super Dave]

Ok, fine he's fast.  

Let's use the 70 HP analogy.

What's a 250 weigh now?  250 pounds.  That means 3.57 pounds of weight for each HP.

My GSXR600 weighed 380 plus, and made 104HP.  Pretty average now days.  That's 3.65 pounds of bike for each HP.  

Using that analogy, it doesn't belong in Lightweight anything.  It should be put in MWGP and ULGP.

And again using that anology, Ed Key's bike, a Suzuki SV650, FULLY supersported makes around 73HP.  It weighs a very light 330 pounds, maybe less....  Still out gunned by a TZ250.

And the TZ250 was made to be a race bike, not a street bike.  I would think that Yamaha would make a better race bike to race when compared to a street bike.

And fast is very relative.  I raced AMA Pro in the early 90's quite a bit.  I'm old now.  I lolly gag around, I'm dealing with other people's stuff, but I still do pretty well.  I am NOT working hard to go that fast.  I CAN go faster when I have an opportunity to put my head into it.

So, if you're riding a TZ250 and you're getting beat by SV's...  you've got to sit down and figure out a different way of doing what you're doing.

How's that go....

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome...

I really find it hard to agree that TZ250's, RS250's, the real Aprilia GP250 bike (not the steet/race one), belong in GTLights.

[Monty925]

"Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome... "

That kind of describes some of us trying to make this point.

Here's my last example, maybe it will have an impact.

Even though the CCS website sucks (because it's two+ months after the ROC and the complete results aren't posted yet!)  I remember reading that the 2002 LWGP CCS NATIONAL CHAMPION is Greg Esser on his Honda RS250.  I remember reading that Mr. Key was there as were many other CCS fast guys.

At the WERA/Suzuki Cup Finals SV race at Road Atlanta, Brad Champion managed to post a 1:34.6 as his fastest lap in a very heated battle with Dave Yaakov, John Linder, Greg Harrison and quite a few other VERY COMPETENT SV riders on what should have been some very decent SV's.

That 1:34.6 which won Brad some serious coin wouldn't have put him in the top ten qualifying times at the '02 Road Atlanta AMA 250 event.

TZ-Boy I wish you the best of luck learning to properly ride your 250, Mr. Kwak you too.  When you see the light you will understand.

[TZDeSioux]

This thread needs to die!  :-X

[Super Dave]

This is an Ex-thread...

This is a late thread...

And now for something completely different...

A naked man playing an organ...

Da,da,ta,da,daaaaa!

ITS...

We're out of here...LOL!