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Small twins & Thumper Class?

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CCS854

Small twins & Thumper Class?
« on: October 01, 2004, 03:14:54 pm »
This topic grew out of the Ultra L/W Superbike thread, but is directed at the former LW Sportsman/SuperSingles racers.

I suggest any riders interested in reviving some version of the LW Sportsman class let Kevin Elliott know.  This is a the e-mail I just dashed off:

Would like to propose that some version of the old Sportsman/LW
Sportsman class be revived in the future that would give the former LW
Sportsman & SuperSingles bikes a class to race in.  The current Ultra LW
Superbike class is in effect another name for the MW Sportsman class, and serves that group well, but leaves the small twins & singles w/o a class.
    I haven't raced w/CCS at all this year, as I don't currently have a
bike that will compete against XB-9s, 750ss, etc .  I am still considering
whether to build yet another bike for CCS, or just to do WERA Clubman for
2005.  One of the attractions of the builder's classes like LW/MW/HW
Sportsman & WERA Clubman is that you don't have to buy a new bike every
couple of years.   I'm afraid that the current class structure will drive
many LW racers out of CCS to WERA Clubman & AHRMA SOS/BOTT.

regards,

Eric Mercer

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Super Dave

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2004, 04:24:50 am »
If you're gonna propose something, then you've got to open it up.

LW Sportsman would have been the class for my three cylinder Kawasaki street bike racer project.  Would have been very competitive, and should be.  Look at the original rules and try to put something together based on that.
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CCS854

Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2004, 08:33:22 pm »
Quote
If you're gonna propose something, then you've got to open it up.

LW Sportsman would have been the class for my three cylinder Kawasaki street bike racer project.  Would have been very competitive, and should be.  Look at the original rules and try to put something together based on that.


Dave
 all I suggested was restoring a class that would run IAW the 2003 rules for LW Sportsman, assuming that that class had evolved rationally; however, if you want to brainstorm a new improved version, let's go ;D
 

BTW, was the H2 allowed in LW Sportsman previously?  I haven't seen one race outside a vintage class, but it would be awesome!  My teammate Derek Kotheimer has a very nice mono-shock version in his garage, and says that 120HP is a very conservative number...would it be rideable?

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Super Dave

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2004, 05:24:48 am »
Under the previous rules, air cooled two strokes up to 500cc were allowed.  H2 would not have been allowed as it's a 750.  That would have been legal for MW Sportsman.  As would have older CB750's in MW Sportsman.

The trick is if you're going to try to rewrite a rule, you need to cover all the bases.  

I got the LW Sportsman rules changed to allow H1's in it as RD's were allowed.  In vintage racing all around the country, most organizations recognize "Formula 500" as a class.  Under CCS's previous structure, the cut off was like 450cc's or something.

If you're gonna remake LW Sportsman, you'll have to take into account what bikes, over a long span of manufacturer builds, could be raced in it...then you're gonna need to figure out how the other racing classes would be affected...and rewrite those rules too.
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CCS854

Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2004, 08:35:28 pm »
Quote
Under the previous rules, air cooled two strokes up to 500cc were allowed.  H2 would not have been allowed as it's a 750.  That would have been legal for MW Sportsman.  As would have older CB750's in MW Sportsman.

The trick is if you're going to try to rewrite a rule, you need to cover all the bases.  

I got the LW Sportsman rules changed to allow H1's in it as RD's were allowed.  In vintage racing all around the country, most organizations recognize "Formula 500" as a class.  Under CCS's previous structure, the cut off was like 450cc's or something.

If you're gonna remake LW Sportsman, you'll have to take into account what bikes, over a long span of manufacturer builds, could be raced in it...then you're gonna need to figure out how the other racing classes would be affected...and rewrite those rules too.


Dave
  I wasn't trying to 'remake' LW Sportsman or MW Sportsman (Ultra LW Superbike), but was simply suggesting that CCS run LW Sportsman in 2005 exactly as it was in 2003 so the small twins, 2-strokes & singles wouldn't have to migrate to other organizations to run competitively.  Before we start reinventing anything the first order of business is to convince CCS that there is a benefit to them to restore the LW Sportsman class.  Leave UltraLW Sbike as is, and give the LW Sportsman bikes their class back.  

You may be right, the old rules might need some refining, but don't you think a Hybrid H2 in LW Sportsman is cherrypicking  ;D?  O.K....let's discuss it, but meanwhile we need to get CCS on board.

Anybody have a copy of the 2003 rulebook?  It would be great if we could look at the rules for this class.  If my memory is correct I believe that unlimited 4-stroke singles (except for exotic [read: 'expensive'] supermonos like the Wood-Rotax & Ducati Supermono) could run in LW Sptsmn along w/small twins like the EX500, GS500 & various 2-strokes such as RZ350, NSR250?  The Supermonos & unlimited 2-stroke multis bumped to MW Sportsman (Ultra LW Spbike?)  

Anybody reading this racing a bike that actually fits in the old LW Sportsman class?  Just curious, do you plan to keep competing against XB9 Buells & Duc750SS on your current bike, buy another bike or race with another organization?  I would consider doing VIR (local/technical circuit) in ULW Sbike on my MZ, but a regional series or ROC would be out of the question. Speaking of cherrypicking ;D,if I ever get my carbed T-509 Triumph sorted out, I might run it...but I would never build it just for that one class, since it can't even run in Thunderbike.
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Zac

Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2004, 11:44:02 am »
Here is the LWSM rules from the 2003 rules:

Quote
6.5 SPORTSMAN - Sportsman machines are based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers
in North America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single
cylinder machines are exempt from street use requirements. Single cylinder 2 stroke GP road race machines are not
allowed in this class. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers.
6.5.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal
commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis . CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director.
6.5.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the following:
A. Frame, head(s), cylinders, and engine cases must be from the same production model motorcycle.
(1.) Single cylinder motorcycles may use any frame and engine in Middleweight Sportsman.
B. The frame must be as originally supplied by the manufacturer on the approved model. Strengthening
gussets or tubes may be added. Only brackets or tubes not supporting suspension, engine, or drive line
components may be removed. Swing arms may be modified or replaced and rear shocks may be replaced or
relocated. Single cylinder motorcycles are excluded from this restriction.
C. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet Sportsman class displacement limits is
not allowed.
D. Fairings that meet the requirements of Section 5 may be used.
E. Liquid cooling is not allowed unless original equipment on the model being used.
F. Original type of induction system must be retained. If a machine originally was sold with fuel injection, then
it must remain fuel injected. If the machine originally came with carburetors, then it must use carburetors,
however they need not be the original type or size.
6.5.3- Sportsman Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:

LIGHTWEIGHT SPORTSMAN (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, production frame
Single cylinder, up to 500cc, unlimited frame
Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 410cc
Two stroke, air cooled, up to 550cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 700cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 650cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, push rod, up to 895cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 515cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 625cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up 410cc


I'm up for a new class as long as my CR500 is legal (It's a water cooled 2-stroke, which would be limited to 410cc, but it is a single cylinder "production" frame, which would be unlimited.  The LWSB rules are this way as well, I've always run it as an "unlimited single" and not a "two-stroke")

If you really intend for a new class to accomidate singles and other LWSM bikes, LWSM is more restrictive than SuperSingles, which allows the Supermonos and Tigcrafts and homebuilt hybrids.  Should they be allowed into the new class as well?

-z.
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Super Dave

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2004, 05:57:50 am »
Quote

You may be right, the old rules might need some refining, but don't you think a Hybrid H2 in LW Sportsman is cherrypicking  ;D?  O.K....let's discuss it, but meanwhile we need to get CCS on board.


Like I stated above, a 750 a/c two stroke was legal for MWSM...that's the H2.  H1 is a 500.

Still has to use a production frame, remember.

Regardless, I raced a 1969 Honda 750 at Daytona (air cooled four stroke) and set the vintage lap record with the previous chicane.  I would have been pretty competitive in Thunderbike...even though that bike would have been a MWSM bike.

With what I am doing to the H1, I fully expected to go faster than I did on the CB750.  Still a production frame with dual shocks, wire wheels, etc.

As for getting CCS on board...

You've got to show where the numbers of riders will come from.  



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CCS854

Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2004, 07:13:14 pm »
Quote
Here is the LWSM rules from the 2003 rules:


I'm up for a new class as long as my CR500 is legal (It's a water cooled 2-stroke, which would be limited to 410cc, but it is a single cylinder "production" frame, which would be unlimited.  The LWSB rules are this way as well, I've always run it as an "unlimited single" and not a "two-stroke")

If you really intend for a new class to accomidate singles and other LWSM bikes, LWSM is more restrictive than SuperSingles, which allows the Supermonos and Tigcrafts and homebuilt hybrids.  Should they be allowed into the new class as well?

-z.


Zac
Thanks for posting the 2003 LW Sportsman rules.  I agree that your CR500 was legal in that class.  The discussion regarding singles gets a little confusing, but my understanding of the rules was that singles could use any frame/engine combo, but that Spondon, Tigcraft etc hybrids & race bikes such as Duc Supermono, Wood-Rotax, etc were not permitted in the class, and were bumped to Supersingles (and GP Singles before that class was created) MW Sptsmn (Ultra LW Sprbike now), LW GP, etc.  But these rules could be interpreted to mean that even street-framed based hybrids over 500cc like an SRX/Hawk would have been excluded.  Looks like a smaller non-production hybrid e.g. CRF450/TZ could have run in the class.
 
 The CCS LW sportsman & WERA Clubman rules convinced me to build a production based MuZ vs an exotic hybrid, so I'd have more classes to run...well I got to run one CCS race, ROC 2003, on the newly completed MZ and then the class went away for '04 :(  
 
 Just for comparison, here are the WERA Clubman class rules.  Sportsman (and then later LW Sportsman) was pretty much CCS's version of Clubman.  

 They're pretty permissive about hybrid singles, but specify no Duc Supermonos.  I think CCS's 2003 Sptsmn rules were more equitable since it treated racing framed hybrids the same as the purpose-built racers, but the language needs to be clarified, i.e. does "production" frame include one produced to be used for racing only, or a frame produced to be used on a "street" motorcycle?

CLUBMAN EXPERT & NOVICE (all below based on Formula rules except as noted)
Unlimited displacement 2 & 4-stroke singles
Up to 605cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 650cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 250cc 4-stroke water-cooled multis
Up to 600cc 4-stroke air-cooled 2 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 570cc 4-stroke air-cooled 4 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 410cc 2-stroke air-cooled multis
Up to 373cc 2-stroke water-cooled multis
All Vintage 4 machines
Honda Hawks are allowed but are limited to Superstock modifications
Air cooled Ducati 750’s are allowed but limited to Superstock mods.
All 250cc 2-stroke GP replica machine (TZR, NSR, RGV, etc..) must conform to Superstock rules with the exception that slicks are allowed., no Ducati Supermono, no Aprilia Cup machines. 125cc & 250cc GP machines are not allowed.
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CCS854

Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2004, 07:32:27 pm »
Quote


Like I stated above, a 750 a/c two stroke was legal for MWSM...that's the H2.  H1 is a 500.

Still has to use a production frame, remember.

Regardless, I raced a 1969 Honda 750 at Daytona (air cooled four stroke) and set the vintage lap record with the previous chicane.  I would have been pretty competitive in Thunderbike...even though that bike would have been a MWSM bike.

With what I am doing to the H1, I fully expected to go faster than I did on the CB750.  Still a production frame with dual shocks, wire wheels, etc.

As for getting CCS on board...

You've got to show where the numbers of riders will come from.  





The numbers would presumably come from the hordes of (former)LW Sportsman & Supersingles riders that find themselves bumped into Ultra LW Sbike w/ the MW Sptsmn bikes.  

O.K. I just figured out where I went wrong with this thread.  This has been a good discussion of class structure, but no one on the Forum seems moved to write to Kevin Elliott...I should have put my post to him on the General Forum, while we continued this discussion on Rules & Regs  :-[

If we could jump back to the thread looking for interested racers, maybe we'll generate more response:

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1096669173

...and then back here to continue this discussion.
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Super Dave

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2004, 05:48:38 am »
Quote

The numbers would presumably come from the hordes of (former)LW Sportsman & Supersingles riders that find themselves bumped into Ultra LW Sbike w/ the MW Sptsmn bikes.


Define hordes...

In the MW/GP/GL region, if we had one to three bikes, that was incredible.  

SV's and 600's are going to have hordes.

How many did you have in your area?

On the WERA rules, you should post what Vintage 4 is...as to make the definition of their structure clear.
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Eric Kelcher

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2004, 09:26:53 am »
classes were killed because of light turnout. if someone started producing a bike to fit in that class you might see a resrecetion(sp). the WERA rules are almost an exact match of ULSB for 2004 as they allow Ducati 750 Hawk 650 and FZR400. I think the WERA rule posted was from 2002?

Hell I have a TZ framed 700cc single and don't see the reason for the class(well it might allow me to sell the bike). I was gridded way in the back at ROC 2001 for LWSM I think I was bike # 48 and made it up to 6th at the finish, I was passing EX500s like they were standing still on the banking. Next year production frame rule went into effect.
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Eric Kelcher
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Super Dave

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Re: Small twins & Thumper Class?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2004, 10:36:08 am »
I'm there too.

I got the LWSM rules changed for my H1, but never got to race it in it...

And I can't justify the class.

But I still expect to be competitive in Thunderbike and Lightweight Superbike, in addition to U-LWSB.
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Super Dave