Small twins & Thumper Class?

Started by CCS854, October 01, 2004, 03:14:54 PM

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CCS854

This topic grew out of the Ultra L/W Superbike thread, but is directed at the former LW Sportsman/SuperSingles racers.

I suggest any riders interested in reviving some version of the LW Sportsman class let Kevin Elliott know.  This is a the e-mail I just dashed off:

 Would like to propose that some version of the old Sportsman/LW
Sportsman class be revived in the future that would give the former LW
Sportsman & SuperSingles bikes a class to race in.  The current Ultra LW
Superbike class is in effect another name for the MW Sportsman class, and serves that group well, but leaves the small twins & singles w/o a class.
     I haven't raced w/CCS at all this year, as I don't currently have a
bike that will compete against XB-9s, 750ss, etc .  I am still considering
whether to build yet another bike for CCS, or just to do WERA Clubman for
2005.  One of the attractions of the builder's classes like LW/MW/HW
Sportsman & WERA Clubman is that you don't have to buy a new bike every
couple of years.   I'm afraid that the current class structure will drive
many LW racers out of CCS to WERA Clubman & AHRMA SOS/BOTT.

regards,

Eric Mercer


Super Dave

If you're gonna propose something, then you've got to open it up.

LW Sportsman would have been the class for my three cylinder Kawasaki street bike racer project.  Would have been very competitive, and should be.  Look at the original rules and try to put something together based on that.
Super Dave

CCS854

QuoteIf you're gonna propose something, then you've got to open it up.

LW Sportsman would have been the class for my three cylinder Kawasaki street bike racer project.  Would have been very competitive, and should be.  Look at the original rules and try to put something together based on that.

Dave
  all I suggested was restoring a class that would run IAW the 2003 rules for LW Sportsman, assuming that that class had evolved rationally; however, if you want to brainstorm a new improved version, let's go ;D
  

BTW, was the H2 allowed in LW Sportsman previously?  I haven't seen one race outside a vintage class, but it would be awesome!  My teammate Derek Kotheimer has a very nice mono-shock version in his garage, and says that 120HP is a very conservative number...would it be rideable?


Super Dave

Under the previous rules, air cooled two strokes up to 500cc were allowed.  H2 would not have been allowed as it's a 750.  That would have been legal for MW Sportsman.  As would have older CB750's in MW Sportsman.

The trick is if you're going to try to rewrite a rule, you need to cover all the bases.  

I got the LW Sportsman rules changed to allow H1's in it as RD's were allowed.  In vintage racing all around the country, most organizations recognize "Formula 500" as a class.  Under CCS's previous structure, the cut off was like 450cc's or something.

If you're gonna remake LW Sportsman, you'll have to take into account what bikes, over a long span of manufacturer builds, could be raced in it...then you're gonna need to figure out how the other racing classes would be affected...and rewrite those rules too.
Super Dave

CCS854

QuoteUnder the previous rules, air cooled two strokes up to 500cc were allowed.  H2 would not have been allowed as it's a 750.  That would have been legal for MW Sportsman.  As would have older CB750's in MW Sportsman.

The trick is if you're going to try to rewrite a rule, you need to cover all the bases.  

I got the LW Sportsman rules changed to allow H1's in it as RD's were allowed.  In vintage racing all around the country, most organizations recognize "Formula 500" as a class.  Under CCS's previous structure, the cut off was like 450cc's or something.

If you're gonna remake LW Sportsman, you'll have to take into account what bikes, over a long span of manufacturer builds, could be raced in it...then you're gonna need to figure out how the other racing classes would be affected...and rewrite those rules too.

Dave
   I wasn't trying to 'remake' LW Sportsman or MW Sportsman (Ultra LW Superbike), but was simply suggesting that CCS run LW Sportsman in 2005 exactly as it was in 2003 so the small twins, 2-strokes & singles wouldn't have to migrate to other organizations to run competitively.  Before we start reinventing anything the first order of business is to convince CCS that there is a benefit to them to restore the LW Sportsman class.  Leave UltraLW Sbike as is, and give the LW Sportsman bikes their class back.  

You may be right, the old rules might need some refining, but don't you think a Hybrid H2 in LW Sportsman is cherrypicking  ;D?  O.K....let's discuss it, but meanwhile we need to get CCS on board.

Anybody have a copy of the 2003 rulebook?  It would be great if we could look at the rules for this class.  If my memory is correct I believe that unlimited 4-stroke singles (except for exotic [read: 'expensive'] supermonos like the Wood-Rotax & Ducati Supermono) could run in LW Sptsmn along w/small twins like the EX500, GS500 & various 2-strokes such as RZ350, NSR250?  The Supermonos & unlimited 2-stroke multis bumped to MW Sportsman (Ultra LW Spbike?)  

Anybody reading this racing a bike that actually fits in the old LW Sportsman class?  Just curious, do you plan to keep competing against XB9 Buells & Duc750SS on your current bike, buy another bike or race with another organization?  I would consider doing VIR (local/technical circuit) in ULW Sbike on my MZ, but a regional series or ROC would be out of the question. Speaking of cherrypicking ;D,if I ever get my carbed T-509 Triumph sorted out, I might run it...but I would never build it just for that one class, since it can't even run in Thunderbike.

Zac

Here is the LWSM rules from the 2003 rules:

Quote6.5 SPORTSMAN - Sportsman machines are based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers
in North America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single
cylinder machines are exempt from street use requirements. Single cylinder 2 stroke GP road race machines are not
allowed in this class. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers.
6.5.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal
commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis . CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director.
6.5.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the following:
A. Frame, head(s), cylinders, and engine cases must be from the same production model motorcycle.
(1.) Single cylinder motorcycles may use any frame and engine in Middleweight Sportsman.
B. The frame must be as originally supplied by the manufacturer on the approved model. Strengthening
gussets or tubes may be added. Only brackets or tubes not supporting suspension, engine, or drive line
components may be removed. Swing arms may be modified or replaced and rear shocks may be replaced or
relocated. Single cylinder motorcycles are excluded from this restriction.
C. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet Sportsman class displacement limits is
not allowed.
D. Fairings that meet the requirements of Section 5 may be used.
E. Liquid cooling is not allowed unless original equipment on the model being used.
F. Original type of induction system must be retained. If a machine originally was sold with fuel injection, then
it must remain fuel injected. If the machine originally came with carburetors, then it must use carburetors,
however they need not be the original type or size.
6.5.3- Sportsman Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:

LIGHTWEIGHT SPORTSMAN (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, production frame
Single cylinder, up to 500cc, unlimited frame
Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 410cc
Two stroke, air cooled, up to 550cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 700cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 650cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, push rod, up to 895cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 515cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 625cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up 410cc

I'm up for a new class as long as my CR500 is legal (It's a water cooled 2-stroke, which would be limited to 410cc, but it is a single cylinder "production" frame, which would be unlimited.  The LWSB rules are this way as well, I've always run it as an "unlimited single" and not a "two-stroke")

If you really intend for a new class to accomidate singles and other LWSM bikes, LWSM is more restrictive than SuperSingles, which allows the Supermonos and Tigcrafts and homebuilt hybrids.  Should they be allowed into the new class as well?

-z.

Super Dave

QuoteYou may be right, the old rules might need some refining, but don't you think a Hybrid H2 in LW Sportsman is cherrypicking  ;D?  O.K....let's discuss it, but meanwhile we need to get CCS on board.

Like I stated above, a 750 a/c two stroke was legal for MWSM...that's the H2.  H1 is a 500.

Still has to use a production frame, remember.

Regardless, I raced a 1969 Honda 750 at Daytona (air cooled four stroke) and set the vintage lap record with the previous chicane.  I would have been pretty competitive in Thunderbike...even though that bike would have been a MWSM bike.

With what I am doing to the H1, I fully expected to go faster than I did on the CB750.  Still a production frame with dual shocks, wire wheels, etc.

As for getting CCS on board...

You've got to show where the numbers of riders will come from.  



Super Dave

CCS854

QuoteHere is the LWSM rules from the 2003 rules:


I'm up for a new class as long as my CR500 is legal (It's a water cooled 2-stroke, which would be limited to 410cc, but it is a single cylinder "production" frame, which would be unlimited.  The LWSB rules are this way as well, I've always run it as an "unlimited single" and not a "two-stroke")

If you really intend for a new class to accomidate singles and other LWSM bikes, LWSM is more restrictive than SuperSingles, which allows the Supermonos and Tigcrafts and homebuilt hybrids.  Should they be allowed into the new class as well?

-z.

Zac
 Thanks for posting the 2003 LW Sportsman rules.  I agree that your CR500 was legal in that class.  The discussion regarding singles gets a little confusing, but my understanding of the rules was that singles could use any frame/engine combo, but that Spondon, Tigcraft etc hybrids & race bikes such as Duc Supermono, Wood-Rotax, etc were not permitted in the class, and were bumped to Supersingles (and GP Singles before that class was created) MW Sptsmn (Ultra LW Sprbike now), LW GP, etc.  But these rules could be interpreted to mean that even street-framed based hybrids over 500cc like an SRX/Hawk would have been excluded.  Looks like a smaller non-production hybrid e.g. CRF450/TZ could have run in the class.
  
  The CCS LW sportsman & WERA Clubman rules convinced me to build a production based MuZ vs an exotic hybrid, so I'd have more classes to run...well I got to run one CCS race, ROC 2003, on the newly completed MZ and then the class went away for '04 :(  
  
  Just for comparison, here are the WERA Clubman class rules.  Sportsman (and then later LW Sportsman) was pretty much CCS's version of Clubman.  

  They're pretty permissive about hybrid singles, but specify no Duc Supermonos.  I think CCS's 2003 Sptsmn rules were more equitable since it treated racing framed hybrids the same as the purpose-built racers, but the language needs to be clarified, i.e. does "production" frame include one produced to be used for racing only, or a frame produced to be used on a "street" motorcycle?

CLUBMAN EXPERT & NOVICE (all below based on Formula rules except as noted)
Unlimited displacement 2 & 4-stroke singles
Up to 605cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 650cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 250cc 4-stroke water-cooled multis
Up to 600cc 4-stroke air-cooled 2 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 570cc 4-stroke air-cooled 4 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 410cc 2-stroke air-cooled multis
Up to 373cc 2-stroke water-cooled multis
All Vintage 4 machines
Honda Hawks are allowed but are limited to Superstock modifications
Air cooled Ducati 750's are allowed but limited to Superstock mods.
All 250cc 2-stroke GP replica machine (TZR, NSR, RGV, etc..) must conform to Superstock rules with the exception that slicks are allowed., no Ducati Supermono, no Aprilia Cup machines. 125cc & 250cc GP machines are not allowed.

CCS854

QuoteLike I stated above, a 750 a/c two stroke was legal for MWSM...that's the H2.  H1 is a 500.

Still has to use a production frame, remember.

Regardless, I raced a 1969 Honda 750 at Daytona (air cooled four stroke) and set the vintage lap record with the previous chicane.  I would have been pretty competitive in Thunderbike...even though that bike would have been a MWSM bike.

With what I am doing to the H1, I fully expected to go faster than I did on the CB750.  Still a production frame with dual shocks, wire wheels, etc.

As for getting CCS on board...

You've got to show where the numbers of riders will come from.  




The numbers would presumably come from the hordes of (former)LW Sportsman & Supersingles riders that find themselves bumped into Ultra LW Sbike w/ the MW Sptsmn bikes.  

O.K. I just figured out where I went wrong with this thread.  This has been a good discussion of class structure, but no one on the Forum seems moved to write to Kevin Elliott...I should have put my post to him on the General Forum, while we continued this discussion on Rules & Regs  :-[

If we could jump back to the thread looking for interested racers, maybe we'll generate more response:

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1096669173

...and then back here to continue this discussion.

Super Dave

QuoteThe numbers would presumably come from the hordes of (former)LW Sportsman & Supersingles riders that find themselves bumped into Ultra LW Sbike w/ the MW Sptsmn bikes.

Define hordes...

In the MW/GP/GL region, if we had one to three bikes, that was incredible.  

SV's and 600's are going to have hordes.

How many did you have in your area?

On the WERA rules, you should post what Vintage 4 is...as to make the definition of their structure clear.
Super Dave

Eric Kelcher

classes were killed because of light turnout. if someone started producing a bike to fit in that class you might see a resrecetion(sp). the WERA rules are almost an exact match of ULSB for 2004 as they allow Ducati 750 Hawk 650 and FZR400. I think the WERA rule posted was from 2002?

Hell I have a TZ framed 700cc single and don't see the reason for the class(well it might allow me to sell the bike). I was gridded way in the back at ROC 2001 for LWSM I think I was bike # 48 and made it up to 6th at the finish, I was passing EX500s like they were standing still on the banking. Next year production frame rule went into effect.
Eric Kelcher
ASRA/CCS Director of Competition

Super Dave

I'm there too.

I got the LWSM rules changed for my H1, but never got to race it in it...

And I can't justify the class.

But I still expect to be competitive in Thunderbike and Lightweight Superbike, in addition to U-LWSB.
Super Dave

CCS854

QuoteDefine hordes...

In the MW/GP/GL region, if we had one to three bikes, that was incredible.  

SV's and 600's are going to have hordes.

How many did you have in your area?

On the WERA rules, you should post what Vintage 4 is...as to make the definition of their structure clear.

O.K. I forgot to put the ::) emoticon after 'hordes'

Here's V-4:

Vintage 4
Pre 1982 Twins/Triples up to 1000cc.
Pre 1979 SOHC up to 840cc.
Pre 1982 Air cooled, 4-stroke OHC multi cylinders up to 570cc. Twin shock only, twin piston opposed Lockheed style calipers permitted.

Among the eligible V 4 machines are the following: BMW R100 regardless of year; Pre-1974 BSA/Triumph with big bore kits; Pre 1988 Cagiva/Ducati 650cc Desmo types and Ducati 900SS bevel drive; H-D Sportsters up to 1000cc including Evo models; Pre-1974 Honda CB 750 overbored to 840cc and Rickman single cam; Honda Ascot/GB singles up to 600cc regardless of year. Kawasaki GPZ550 and KZ 550; Moto-Guzzi small block V Twins regardless of year and pre-1974 Moto-Guzzi 1000; Norton 850; Suzuki GS 450 and GS 550; Yamaha SRX 600 regardless of year and Seca 550.


CCS854

Quoteclasses were killed because of light turnout. if someone started producing a bike to fit in that class you might see a resrecetion(sp). the WERA rules are almost an exact match of ULSB for 2004 as they allow Ducati 750 Hawk 650 and FZR400. I think the WERA rule posted was from 2002?

The rules are from the 2004 on-line rulebook:

http://www.wera.com/pages/rulebook.htm#ch9

The class is significantly different from ULW Sbike in that the Duc 750SS, Hawk, street-legal repli-racers such as TZR, NSR etc all are restricted to Superstock rules.  Clubman Expert champ in 2002 was on a SZR660 Yamaha thumper, and in 2003 an EX500 powered hybrid won!  I wouldn't recommend allowing superstock (CCS, Supersport) bikes in a builder's class as it require more policing & protests, with consequent ill will.  

CCS854

There has been a problem w/the proliferation of classes w/small grids, so I understand the need to consolidate classes at times, but how?  CCS created the SuperSingles class for 2000 even tho' an exhibition race in Nov '99 only produced about 8 bikes  :o.  The 125 GP & Supermotard classes in WERA typically turnout only grid a handful of bikes, although Clubman continues to be popular.

In '97 Sportsman underwent some changes.  It was renamed LW Sportsman, and HW Sportsman & GP Singles were created.  LW Sportsman bike structure didn't change, except in name, from Sportsman; however, there was no distinction between EX & Am in either that class or GP Singles that first year.  Combining Experts & Amateurs is an option for smaller classes, rather than bumping the smaller bikes up against faster machines...I know that racing my thumper as an Amateur against a field of 125GP Experts quickly elevated my game  ;)

As a worst case scenario I could see CCS combining Supersingles with the LW Sportsman bikes if necessary into one combined EX/AM class until the numbers justified expanding classes again.

r6_philly

if I have 2 classes to run a 400 motard in I will bring it next year. I mentioned that to Kevin as well at VIR. split the Sportman so the super single, motord and little bikes dont have to run with the larger faster bikes. IF there are 2 classes to run a single/sportman bike in we may see more entries. God knows we all have something that fits the mold in the garage but I Am not going to drag it to the track for 1 fun race.

Zac

Quoteif I have 2 classes to run a 400 motard in I will bring it next year. I mentioned that to Kevin as well at VIR. split the Sportman so the super single, motord and little bikes dont have to run with the larger faster bikes. IF there are 2 classes to run a single/sportman bike in we may see more entries. God knows we all have something that fits the mold in the garage but I Am not going to drag it to the track for 1 fun race.

I'll usually race my CR500 in Ultra-lightwieght superbike and GTL.  You could also race LWSB (no LWSS due to non-stock wheels, etc.).  How competitive the motards are is really dependent on the track and how worked the bike is.  An average stock 450 makes somewhere around 45-50 hp and get wasted on power.  The big factory KTMs make over 70 hp and probably weigh around 230, could give an SV some serious problems.  

My somewhat worked 500 will hang with the RS250 Aprilias, they have me beat on corner speed, but I have way more low speed acceleration and the top end is about the same.  On the right track (slow corners and short straights) I can give the SVs a run.

-z.

r6_philly

QuoteI'll usually race my CR500 in Ultra-lightwieght superbike and GTL.  You could also race LWSB (no LWSS due to non-stock wheels, etc.).  How competitive the motards are is really dependent on the track and how worked the bike is.  An average stock 450 makes somewhere around 45-50 hp and get wasted on power.  The big factory KTMs make over 70 hp and probably weigh around 230, could give an SV some serious problems.  

My somewhat worked 500 will hang with the RS250 Aprilias, they have me beat on corner speed, but I have way more low speed acceleration and the top end is about the same.  On the right track (slow corners and short straights) I can give the SVs a run.

-z.

I know I can always "race up" a little, but it would be nice to have a LWsportsman and a supersingle to race in, without having too much disadvantage.

I know I am going to be spanked lol but it would nice to have some other bikes to beat. If ther eare going to be 5-6 motords at any weekend then I Wouldn't really care who win the race as long as I got some people to race with. More participation will definitely be more fun, but to just one class to play in (GTL will have SV's  :o) kind of not worth it for me to bring it.

riopko

I went to WERA in 2004 because I was limited to one competitive race, ULWSB, with CCS. I understood the reasoning CCS used as we had very small grids here in the southeast for LW sportsman. Makes sense to set classes to serve the most people. I kept my CCS license and planned to make a few weekends but an injury prevented that. The class structure in WERA is better for the small and often older bikes. Grids are still small but at least double the ones from 2003 CCS. Two organizations, two philosiphies, both work well. If there are more classes It would be great but here in the southeast the turnout just did not justify it. :-[

Thumper881

My first post,take it easy on me.
  I didn't check all the region's, but didn't a single win the M.A. ULWSB championship?  

Pants_Romano

Hey Eric, Pants here.  I'd like to give you a run for your money at Daytona this year, but what classes should I enter?

By the way, for the rest of you kind folks, I run an MuZ, usually right behind Eric.   :P

CCS854

Pants,
   Glad to see you found your way to this forum.  I've been back at work for 6 wks...no spare time for this until now.

Doesn't look like CCS bumped the XB9/DUC 750SS from ULWSB for '05.  I was a little disappointed that I never got a response from Kevin Elliott on the ULWSB issue, so I guess they've written off the singles & small twins.  If CCS was the only game in town, I'd bite the bullet and buy another bike, but I can stay busy racing w/WERA in the Mid-Atlantic...Vintage 4/5 on the SRX, Clubman,DSS on the MuZ.  Throw in a few AHRMA races and I've got plenty to do.  

If I do any CCS, it'll just be VIR on the Thumper, and then bring the 900cc Triumph to Daytona in the fall.  I can't afford the wear & tear on the singles if they're not competitive.

Thumper881

Hey Eric,
 I don't understand you? If they take out the Buells& the small Ducs there would be no one on the grid. I ran the whole season hoping i'd run in to you some time. I know your bike is fast enough, and if any knows there way around VIR. Whats the big deal!
 I didn't win one race last season , but I had a hell of a good time. Sold my MuZ to Bob Up in the LRRS.
so I guess we can compete together any more  :(
                                It was fun..... ;D

PJ

#23
Actually, CCS did bump the XB9 out of ULSB for 2005. The Duc 750/800s and everything else stay in. Not sure what the point of this was, since the Ducatis, at least in the Midwest/Great Plains, were just as competitive as the XB9. And the Aprilias and Hawks were also very competitive. A Duc 800 won the class National Championship last year (when the class was called Middleweight Sportsman) at Daytona and another one won again this past year at Homestead.

Now I will have to either sell my XB9 or invest the $$$ to build it into a 12. Too bad. I really liked the class and had some great races with guys like Gary Palmer (Duc 750), Aaron Risinger (Apr 250), Kevin Weir (MuZ) and Billy Breitung (Hawk 700).

In the Midwest/Great Plains region, there will be 3 less bikes (XB9s) on the grid in a class that barely averaged enough for tire contingency. Plus Gary Palmer is now considering quitting the class in order for us to continue our great races and build a bigger Duc motor to be more competitive in the LW classes.

Singles guys, I feel your pain. But I'm afraid this class will wither away and die just like super singles did.
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

Thumper881

Paul,
 FYI Last Oct. was the first ULSB national. The previous years were all the old classes.

PJ

#25
Yes, Thumper, you are correct. But it was essentially the same class and the same rules, just called Middleweight Sportsman. Edited the post...
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

CCS854

QuoteHey Eric,
 I don't understand you? If they take out the Buells& the small Ducs there would be no one on the grid. I ran the whole season hoping i'd run in to you some time. I know your bike is fast enough, and if any knows there way around VIR. Whats the big deal!
 I didn't win one race last season , but I had a hell of a good time. Sold my MuZ to Bob Up in the LRRS.
so I guess we can compete together any more  :(
                                It was fun..... ;D

Kevin
  I can't really afford to sell the MuZ as long as I can run it in WERA competitively...I built it to the hilt in late 2003 to compete in existing classes so I wouldn't have to make excuses...no more 'underdog' status ;D  So now do I sell the bike for a many $k loss, having done only 1 CCS race on it (at Daytona in 2003) so I can start building a new bike again; do I run it in bump-up classes only w/ CCS, or do I just run it where it's competitive?

  However, I AM going to do some CCS races this yr...mostly VIR & Summit Shenandoah, cuz they're technical circuits that the Thumpers can compete on (I walked the Shen.Circuit last fall & contrary to popular opinion I think it should be fun...on a small bike ;) ).  Look forward to seeing you sometime this yr.

Thumper881

Great I'm looking forward to it. I took a big hit on the MuZ. Now I'm kicking my self in the arse. I didn't find out about the change till after.When I bitched last year they told me to buy a Buell.Good thing I didn't take that advice.I'm just riding the duc this year. I'll just ride it till they change the rules against us .I'm just bitter over the whole thing.If you don't run one of the premier classes they just dump on you.      See you soon...

CCS854

QuoteActually, CCS did bump the XB9 out of ULSB for 2005...
..Now I will have to either sell my XB9 or invest the $$$ to build it into a 12...

O.K.  Shows what I know...I thought (assumed?:-[ ) the XB9 was based on the 883cc sportster engine.  So it's over 900cc?

Thumper881

984 - Not much fun competing with that. I watched one guy at Barber,if I got to close he would just twist it and walk away from me.I felt like he was just toying with me.

PJ

#30
Quote984 - Not much fun competing with that. I watched one guy at Barber,if I got to close he would just twist it and walk away from me.I felt like he was just toying with me.

Yep, my stock XB9 is pretty fast compared to a single. And Barber (while not exactly a horsepower track) was one of the 6 ULSB races I won last season. But I got beat by guys on Ducati 800s that make more hp and weigh less. And by rather fast Hawk 700s at Road America and Daytona said to make more than 95 hp. And by Aaron Risinger's Aprilia 250 (who also beat you at Barber). The point is, ULSB is the former Middleweight Sportsman class, and a single isn't going to be competitive against any of these bikes with good riders aboard.

Next you'll be crying about the Ducs, then the Hawks, then the 'prillers. Kick all those bikes out and you'll have the SuperSingles class again, with nobody on the grid to race against.

Before the class evaporates entirely, I might just have to dust off an old TwinSports Sportster (the rules allow unlimited displacement).

Let the whining begin (again)...  ;)
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

CCS854

Quote...Next you'll be crying about the Ducs, then the Hawks, then the 'prillers. Kick all those bikes out and you'll have the SuperSingles class again, with nobody on the grid to race against...  ;)

Well, you're probably right, PJ, but as I said earlier most of the small twins & thumpers will definitely go away from CCS with the current class structure...even 'Thumper881' isn't racing a thumper any more ;).  Whether a class combining the old LW Sprtsmn & SSingles would have been viable is moot now...we'll never know.

Somehow LRRS has kept those old classes alive...that's where Kevin's MZ is now.  

Good luck on the XB12 in LW sprbike

Super Dave

QuoteSomehow LRRS has kept those old classes alive..

Perspective might be in order.

Years and years ago, singles used to be raced.  But they were usually built models that competed in and among other classes with other bikes.

Even a prime example was the fact that the AMA allowed 600cc singles in 250GP at one time.  

Most singles were of the builders variety...Wood Rotax set ups with Spondon chassis, etc.  Notice that Single's have always been allowed to have no restrictions on frames.

Lately, there have been a few bikes built with single cylinder.  The MZ was one.  Yeah, it's fun, but it reminded me more of an underpowered RZ350.  Never thought the chassis was stellar.  Was good racing with contingency when that happened, racing MZ's against MZ's...but that's it.

Anyway, these Supersingles classes were new, not old, classes.  They never caught on.  Just not enough coverage to do it.  Loudon?  Well, you're in a different market.  Different areas have different strengths.  There are a whole lot more lightweight entries in the eastern regions than what we have in the midwest.
Super Dave