SD's new AM/EX idea...

[Clay]

What about the guys (not me for sure) that have a GP bike and a SS bike.  Don't you think they'll be a little miffed that they have to qualify on their SS bike and those times go for their GP times as well?  I mean, for me it doesn't make a difference.  But what about guys like that?  Either make qualifying for both classes, or just keep it GP like it is now.  

I say 4 qualifying sessions.  600 and below and 750+ for GP and SS.  I know that to guys like Trey Yonce, slick tires means the difference for a half second.  You could run 4 20 minute qualfying sessions and have them done in an hour and a half.  No matter what way you do it, I don't think one qualifying session for all races is a good idea.  

[Clay]

With that...I think that the guys who run SS like me could choose to have their qualifying time carry to the GP if we didn't want to waste our tires.

[Super Dave]

Obviously you haven't attended a FUSA event weekend where the USGPRU was running. The last 2 events (VIR and Barber) there have been bigger 125 and 250 grids than all the FUSA classes. There are plenty of GP bikes out there - guys like me just want more classes to run in.

I have.  Never raced USGPRU as I don't have either anymore.  Used to race a 250 and I raced a 125 for someone at an AMA National event in 1994.

I have nothing set in stone, everyone.  I'm looking for help, input, etc.

However, for me, locally, there were three 125 bikes in the 125 race...that's expert and amateur.  250's should be able to run with 600's.  

Regardless, for 250's, I have Grand Prix Light for the current structure of Lightweight Grand Prix.

I haven't put anything in for 125's under expert.  

Some of this is basic stuff that I've written, but it's on another thread...  http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1094136146;start=30 jp233, give me some input.

Probably worth looking at.

Clay, I never said one qualifying session.  There would need to be several  sessions, but time is a consideration.  If I'm racing one bike in multiple classes, a couple of sessions would be fine, but I might only need/want two.  Ok, let's say I have some really cool qualifying tires.  Sure let me run them.  Certainly, I'm not going to qualify with slicks for a DOT race.

[Bernie]

Ok, so here's a question...

Would it be reasonable for "novices" to practice with the "amateur/sportsman" racers?

No.  Speed disparity would intimidate novices and take away from their core attraction to this system, not to mention impeding the amateur/sportsman racers.  I see myself in the amateur/sportsman class, but I would not be willing to share the track with first-timers for safety reasons.

If you wouldn't race with a particular group, you shouldn't practice with a particular group.  You'd probably be able to reorganize the practice groups (presuming the number of experts would now be smaller) and have the same number of groups with a novice only session.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     SD, If I read what you said correctly then Sportsman will basically be considered Amateur and will run yellow plates? I'm not sure how many current 'experts' would be thrilled about being considered an amateur again and having to run those hideous yellow plates just because they would prefer to run the 'Sportsman' class instead of the ragged edge class. There's a certain amount of pride that goes along with having done the laps and gained the experience to wear the white plates, no matter if your at the front, or the back, of the current 'expert' classes. I have generally looked at the yellow plates as a caution sign to experts racing in combined classes.

     That Sportsman category will probably see a wide variety of ability, speed, and experience which will probably make for alot of lap traffic and make competition at the front very interesting (probably very similar to lap traffic experienced during endurance races, but in sprints). My concern in the uppermost class will be the ability of competitors to run enough classes to satisfy their racing appetite, especially if they only have 1 bike, and it's not a 600. I think it would almost come down to having to run a 600 if you wanted to run multiple classes with 1 bike in the uppermost category.

[Super Dave]

Mike, I'll do you first.

Under current rules, a current production 600 can run in nine standard classes.  A 750, five.  1000, three.

Under my proposal:  600, five.  750, three.  1000, two.

Where it's tricky is for 1000cc twins, like Bernie's TL-R.  He's got two options.  Might be hard if he were running expert under these rules.

A 600 will always be able to bump up more because there is more to bump up to.  And 600's still are the most popular motorcycle.

Bernie, point taken on the practice idea.

Mike, lots of lapped traffic on the Sportsman races?  Don't know.  The slowest guys can stay in the novice classes rather than flounder.  The fastest amateurs are usually not that far off the fastest expert times.  Last year, we had Benji Thornton doing 13's as a first year amateur.  He didn't win every race either.  

Racing can be all about ego's or it can be nothing about ego's.  When it's about ego's...guys sometime leave the sport because they would never dare to be an "amateur" again.  Life sucks.  I say change the name, change the concept of what we think racing is at this level.  

Stephan Mertens was a guy that raced 250 GP, World Superbike, etc.  Now he's left with doing BMW World Cup stuff.  No ego.

[Jeff]

Stupid question...

Dave, have you approached Kevin on this?  I ask because this is a RADICAL change.  Regardless of how many people sign up for it, we should know if he would entertain it.  (i.e., if 100% of participating members voted for free classes, it still wouldn't happen).

The fuel change was a no-brainer as it made sense and was really no change for CCS.  

This, however, restructures what they DO (points, standings, registration, licensing, race day).  

[Super Dave]

I recognize the fuel problems at the end of 2001.  Took me until the 2004 rule book to get it worked out.  

I let Kevin know about it.  He hasn't replied.  He has lots of work he has to do.  I do have off line things going on also.

Kevin...sorry to make your head hurt, and I know you read stuff...

Often, the reality of some changes has been from a minority of riders that wanted something changed (unhappy people are a bit more vocal than happy people)...example was the order of practice sessions a few years ago.  Most people liked it the way it was.  However, there were some that didn't like it.  Well, they were the loudest one's in the chorus, so...

This all has to make sense.  That's why I started here.  I can come up with ideas, but I am constantly looking for input all around.  

These are radical ideas.  But the worst that can happen is nothing, right?  Best is that some ideas get implimented.  Nothing will get better if things are done the same way over and over and over again expecting a different result, right?

[Jeff]

These are radical ideas.  But the worst that can happen is nothing, right?  Best is that some ideas get implimented.  Nothing will get better if things are done the same way over and over and over again expecting a different result, right?

I totally agree.  Just figured that a phonecall to grease the skids wouldn't hurt.

A simple call to get a "we'd be open to change if people wanted it" would be enough.  Plus, it might help get CCS involved in promoting this (if they agree it makes sense).  

The board here is a good starting ground for the idea, but I'm sure there is a VERY large percentage of CCS riders who aren't on this forum and have no idea of what you are proposing...  Something this large needs assistance.  

When would you imagine them implementing this?  Looking at everything I can consider is involved, I don't believe this would be capable in 05.  06, maybe, assuming someone (cough-Dave-cough) championed it during the year to work out the kinks...  

Am I being too pessimistic?

[Super Dave]

I think I have spent the past two days e-mailing back and forth.  Not with Kevin, but with someone.  Anyway, I do have a better understanding about  some things.  I understand why some things are one way and not another.

So, I'm going to have to regroup and redo some things.  I'll probably lock this thread and the other soon and start a new one with some more consice ideas.  

Someone owe's me a root beer float at Blackhawk...a low carb one... 8)