SD's new AM/EX idea...

[Super Dave]

Good points guys.

First, I'll hit on some stuff.

Comparing my prices of Michelin Radial Race DOT tires from when I was doing AMA in 1993 to now...the prices have not dramatically changed.  Bike prices went up a good deal.  Entry fees went up.  

Fuel...I can still run a 13 at Blackhawk on an actual street Michelin tire front and rear while running on pump gas.  Put on race DOT's and some Power Mist fuel that I'll run in a race (@ $9 a gallon), I can get into the elevens by the end of the weekend when I've really got my mind into it.

Tires will always be an issue.  That's the cost of admission for going fast.  Old one's don't work like new ones.  What can one's expectations be?  It was like that in 1987 with guys running the Suzuki Cup stuff.  I was always dumbfounded by the fact that they used up a set of tires for A race.  Lasted me longer...but I didn't have the set up, the experience, or the riding to USE them that way.

But still...an older bike with a PROPER SET UP can do well.  The lap times can prove it from over ten years ago...but there are few older bikes being raced that have a "good proper set up".

I think one of the things that happened was that the AMA stuff became a bit more competitive.  Costs there escalated.  So, some guys that might have went that route have stayed more local.

The availability of really good suspension has really helped those who have taken advantage of it.

Still, back to the original concept.

Guys, how do we do this?

Three tier system.

Pro Expert?  Sportbike, Formula Sportbike, Unlimited Grand Prix, Thunderbike, Formula Grand Prix (250 GP bikes with 600s), Lightweight Sportbike?

$100 an entry with a purse, qualifying, longer races...Championships, bonuses, etc?

Expert Sportsman?  MWSS, MWGP (250 GP bikes with 600s), LWSS, LWGP (125GP bikes with the lightweight production bikes), ULSB, Supertwins, F40, LWF40, HW/ULSS, ULGP...

Championships, current entry costs, etc.

Amateur?    ULSB, LW, MW, HW, UL...gives everyone, except those running a thousand, to run two classes.  

No points...minimum two weekends of competition in Amateur with a maximum of 18 months or so.  Cost of two entries shouldn't be much more, total, when compared to a "track day".

Thoughts?

[Jeff]

Three tier system.

Pro Expert?  Sportbike, Formula Sportbike, Unlimited Grand Prix, Thunderbike, Formula Grand Prix (250 GP bikes with 600s), Lightweight Sportbike?

$100 an entry with a purse, qualifying, longer races...Championships, bonuses, etc?

Expert Sportsman?  MWSS, MWGP (250 GP bikes with 600s), LWSS, LWGP (125GP bikes with the lightweight production bikes), ULSB, Supertwins, F40, LWF40, HW/ULSS, ULGP...

Championships, current entry costs, etc.

Amateur?    ULSB, LW, MW, HW, UL...gives everyone, except those running a thousand, to run two classes.  

No points...minimum two weekends of competition in Amateur with a maximum of 18 months or so.  Cost of two entries shouldn't be much more, total, when compared to a "track day".

Thoughts?

Dave,

I would sign up for this... Indeed I would...  I'm not sure how CCE would deal with contingency though.  Especially when it comes to MFR contingencies.  

Also, how would a race weekend look?  All Pro-EX on Sun?  All AM on Sat?  Divided up??

Ideally it would probably be best to have the extreme class (Pro-EX) on one day so that the rigs can show up, run and leave.  After all, they have important stuff to do, like wind-tunnel testing different hair colors.

So another thought...  What about those who could easily run the Pro-EX, but remain in the EX ranks simply because they are (relatively) guaranteed that win & contingency whereas they'd have to fight for it in the Pro-EX ranks?  

Personally, I think it'd be funny to place a purse on 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th & 9th places.  That would make for some interesting racing!

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

There would probably need to be a stipulation that a racer couldn't be a Pro Expert and an Expert Sportsman on the same weekend.

Here's a novel thought.  Do Expert Sportsman riders need contingency and purses?  If there are no financial rewards for running as an Expert Sportsman, then it would truly only attract the "Hobby Racers."  Career buldiers would be in and out as fast as possible.  (Just a thought, and don't think that I'm not utterly thrilled when I recieve a bit of contingency myself!)
Those purses could be diverted to the Pro Expert class, thus sweetening the deal for riders willing to put forth the time, effort and money necessary to compete at the top level.  (Again I hear CCS yelling, "We already have FUSA!")
I remember showing up to Barber on a CCS/FUSA weekend and nearly being killed numerous times during the PRACTICE DAY!.  I couldn't even begin to learn the track while pro riders buzzed past at 20-30 seconds a lap faster, and we were ALL in danger because of this mismatch.  It wasn't until I took out Ike's amateur bike in a yellow plate practice that I could finally start to learn anything about the track.
I think this three tier idea rocks.  I'm all for it.

[Super Dave]

Contingency...

Well, nothing in Amateur.

Sportsman...you'd have some...probably similar to current amateur stuff.  I think still that this level of racing should have some amount of reward for those that compete regularly and work to do better.  Might be on their way to becoming a Pro Expert or just continuing to have fun over the long haul.  

Pro Expert - well, you'd like to have a deeper contingency because there is going to be fewer races available and should be more "competitive" and, thus, more expensive to remain competitive.

Formula USA as a national series?  Well, it's nice, I support it, but it doesn't really pay.  Unfortunately, given this year's purse, I can't continue to follow it.  Last year...well, that was good contingency.  Anyway, it doesn't seem to work.  One reason might be because there is are few direct classes that move between regional and national events.

Please eliminate any talk about advertising and all.  Yup, CCE has all kinds of media available, but really the word should get out through US, the racers, promoting ourselves and our programs.  If we have good racing like we did the past weekend at Blackhawk...hey, it was exciting, my neighbors thought it was really cool.

If you make it...they will come.  That can be reality.  If it's good racing, the word will get out.  NASCAR?  Hey, a consise set of rules that maintains an even playing field has kept many races undecided until the end of a long race...Everyone has their favorites, but who will do it.  That sells and brings those people in.  

[Jeff]

Contingency is really required in the expert ranks.  Offsetting tire costs is a huge help, and one that would not really be prudent to remove.

Purses though...  I stopped running purse paying classes this year due to the additional cost.  I loved the GTx classes, but at this point I stand little chance of getting anything back, so I don't run them.

If I had a solid chance at a 5th, I'd run it.  But with the average pace being in the 12's-13's, I can't cut it with 15's currently.

[Super Dave]

If I had a solid chance at a 5th, I'd run it.  But with the average pace being in the 12's-13's, I can't cut it with 15's currently.

OK, so what would make you run it?

Jeff, you can ride, and you ride well...Yeah, you're not doin' 13's...

If the entry were $110 for a class, the race was 50% longer, and there was payback to tenth like ULGP...but it's a middlewieght class...Add a few dollars for a end of year payout to the top five in points...

Would you rather run that kind of a class or run something only for points where you could finish maybe in the top five?

There would obviously be some over lap.  Some guys running Pro Expert would be slower than the fastest guys in Sportsman Expert.  But would the potential for possible reward, longer races, and prestige sway which way you would go?

I think that Stumpy wants to go further.  So, I can say that he'd probably go the Pro Expert Route...Key...well, I'd bet that he'd like to offset his costs.

Ike?  Where are you?  Starting back up...yeah, sportsman, but maybe lookin' for Pro.

Chime in...

[Dawn]

Expert Sportsman?  MWSS, MWGP (250 GP bikes with 600s), LWSS, LWGP (125GP bikes with the lightweight production bikes), ULSB, Supertwins, F40, LWF40, HW/ULSS, ULGP...

 

Where would the 700cc SV's fit in?  Anyone who's been around for a while in the LW class instead of doing a supersport rebuild (since it's only good for one class) have upgraded to the 700cc motor. (I can name 5 off the top of my head)

Perhaps require stock air box and carbs (these parts are more obtainable than a new motor), but allow an increase of the CC size.  If this configuration is run, you would get a little over 80+ HP when our supersport SV was at 73.

I don't know how common it is in the in-line four classes to SB the motor.

My $0.02

Dawn   :-/

[Scotty Ryan]

 Dave, I think you have a great idea. I would personaly love to see the format changed to something like what you have proposed. I raced motocross for a long time before I made the switch to roadracing, and when I did I didn't understand why the structure was the way it was. I raced motocross from when I was a full beginner all the way to AMA Supercross, and the format they used gave you incentive to progress. At local races they had an "A" "B" and a "C" class. "C" being new beginner or novice racers, there was now contingency or payback for these guys other than a small trophey. Once you showed good speed, or when you just started walking away from the rest of the novices they could move you up at any time in the year to the "B" class. "B" class or intermediate racers could earn contingency and race for points. The orginising district could not force you up to the "A" or expert ranking until the end of the season. Now i'm going to jump in here and say that even though they didn't move a large number of "B" class riders up to the "A" class I personaly thought they moved to many up,and it caught me off guard when I saw how easiley CCS moves riders up to expert. I mean you could finish mid pack all season long and race somewhere around eight races a weekend and still get moved to expert with there 800 point rule or whatever it is. Now a "B" class rider could move himself up to the "A" class at any time he felt ready, but at the discression of the district the rider could be moved back to the "B" class. The "A" or expert rider would race for points and cash along with contingency. And an"A" class rider could choose to move further up through the ranks if he wanted by applying for a Pro Expert AMA licnese. But if feel that the way it was done when I raced motocross gave everyone a place at the track along with the fact that people were always looking towarkd the fact that they could have someone competitive to race against. And if an "A" of expert rider wanted more competition of a chance at more of a purse then he or she could race a Pro Am race where there was more competition and more purse. My point is that it worked in motocross it could work in roadracing. I'm with you Dave 100%.

[motomadness]

Someone write the petition letter to send to the membership.  I'll support with money and willing to critique all suggestions.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

SD?  I'll edit if you write...

[Super Dave]

Where would the 700cc SV's fit in?

I don't know how common it is in the in-line four classes to SB the motor.

My $0.02

Dawn   :-/

Uncommon to SB MW/HW/UL bikes.  Might be because the technology changes every two years, so you're almost better off moving to a new machine for resale...or buying a two year old former race bike...because they can go cheap.  Not that they are uncompetitive, but they are usually not good for manufacturer continency.

With a REAL purse available at the Pro Expert level, Manufacturer Contingency wouldn't necessarily be what drives the need to buy a new bike.  Might change some things...maybe.

700cc LW bikes...good question.  I don't have a great answer.  I do have LWGP.  Currently, there is LWSB and LWGP and Thunderbike.

Would Paul be running Pro Expert or Expert Sportsman?  Sportsman would have more classes available, but Pro Expert would have $$.


Now as for a concise plan....I think we need more input yet.  Keep it coming.

Remember, this is really a complete revamp of the whole club system.  It's always been one way.  Trying to figure out who would be what would be exciting all on its own.

Then we've got to sell the ability of racers to actually enter races with confidence.  In 2003, CCS offered Sportbike at the regional events with a purse.  Even though the rules were pretty much exactly like Supersport, only about eight to eleven guys would enter it at Blackhawk.  How can one tell CCS that riders will actually enter the Pro Expert races?  What would the fee structure be?  Qualifying?  We need a new schedule.

[Jeff]

Dave,

If the race were longer and paid back to 10th, I'd run it.  

This year  I avoided all purse classes to keep my costs down.  I run 4 races per weekend and it's costing me $190.  Would I rather run 3 races, 1 with a (virtually unattainable) purse for $190?  no.  Would I pay more to run a GT race that paid to 10th?  Yes!  $110 though?  That's kinda stiff...  I'd probably end up running it sometimes, but not consistently.

I'm with Sean though.  Dave, get something together that we can get out and present at BHF and G-Man.

Rock the vote zupa-dave!