SD's new AM/EX idea...

[Super Dave]

Good!

Tell me the good points.

Where do you race?

What classes do you race?

Did you receive your contingency quicky?  Was there enough?

How much was your purse?

Did you have fun?

[OmniGLH]

First let me make a comment on something I read a few pages back, while it's still fresh in my head:

Amateur?    ULSB, LW, MW, HW, UL...gives everyone, except those running a thousand, to run two classes.  

Why not just change HW to include 1000s, and drop Unlimited?  Years ago, the 750 class was the "big bike" class.. GSX-R750, ZX-7R, YZF750, etc.  Not anymore - nobody but Suzuki makes a decent 750, and who knows how long that'll be around?  We need to keep with the times.  Since it seems to me that the grids for HW classes are no different than the grids for the MW classes (with 1 or 2 exceptions... Hall for example in the midwest), HW pretty much becomes a redundant class.  First thing you do when trying to improve efficiency is cut redundancy!

Now, as for the rest of this...

A lot to digest here - but overall I like the ideas.  3 tiers is a good idea for all the reasons listed here (no reason to reiterate.)  One thing I am very curious about is how you plan to make it all fit into a 2-day schedule?  I think that before CCS is really going to listen to this new idea (which is essentially a COMPLETE restructuring of how things are run) - we'd have to provide them with proof that it can physically work.  Come up with a sample schedule, come up with a basic financial plan forecasting registration fees, etc.  It seems like most everybody agrees to the general idea presented here - now let's try working out some of the smaller details to see if what we're proposing can actually work.

It's time for lunch.  Let me think about this some and I'll post more later.

Oh - and put me down for "Pro" class.

[Ridgeway]

Just to throw a wild and crazy idea out there...  I haven't started racing yet, so I really don't have any opinions one way or the other on how CCE runs the show but:

If CCE isn't really promoting the sport and it's just a money making thing for them, and any change requires lots of research and proposal from riders vs. the sanctioning body, would it make any sense to create a non-profit by-racers for-racers organization to promote and produce these events?

Maybe this is totally blasphemous to suggest, but I guess my question is, what value does CCE provide that wouldn't exist in a member-run organization?  I imagine the big one is financial backing, but if the events are profitable, is that really an issue?  In a member-run setup, the profits could go towards increasing purses and/or airfence etc, vs. suplementing a for-profit company's coffers.

[OmniGLH]

Just to throw a wild and crazy idea out there...  I haven't started racing yet, so I really don't have any opinions one way or the other on how CCE runs the show but:

If CCE isn't really promoting the sport and it's just a money making thing for them, and any change requires lots of research and proposal from riders vs. the sanctioning body, would it make any sense to create a non-profit by-racers for-racers organization to promote and produce these events?

Maybe this is totally blasphemous to suggest, but I guess my question is, what value does CCE provide that wouldn't exist in a member-run organization?  I imagine the big one is financial backing, but if the events are profitable, is that really an issue?  In a member-run setup, the profits could go towards increasing purses and/or airfence etc, vs. suplementing a for-profit company's coffers.

Your idea has been discussed a LOT already, and is still an idea on the table for some of us.  It's also a whole separate discussion.

I think the biggest hurdle to overcome when starting a new racing organization is money.  It takes significant money to rent a track, pay insurance, pay cornerworkers, etc.  Since you don't really know if enough people are going to show up until the day of the event... it also becomes a large financial risk, in that you might wind up LOSING money.

[Ridgeway]

Your idea has been discussed a LOT

I never claimed that it was an original idea. ;)

Sorry for the threadjack.  FWIW, I think SD's 3 tier proposal makes a lot of sense.  Having spectated, and seen guys like Ed run away with every race he enters, (not a complaint, big props to Mr Key), it did cause me to question what the reward is for being bumped to Expert and having no chance of competing with the top few guys.

I intent to start racing my SV next year, and will likely only be racing the BHF weekends, primarily due to financial constraints.  The sportsman class sounds like it'd be where I'd ideally end up after my time in novice.  I have no delusions about ever being as fast or commited as the top experts, but it would be nice to know I'll have someplace to run and have a shot at being competetive.

[Super Dave]

Why not just change HW to include 1000s, and drop Unlimited? First thing you do when trying to improve efficiency is cut redundancy!

Good question.

First, we have no idea where the market will really go.  So, to eliminate a displacement level might be a shot in the foot.

Heavyweight....Yeah GSXR750's...

But you still have RC51's, Ducati's, Aprilia's, etc...TLR's, SV1000's...I know, they aren't as popular.  But I don't expect many of those bikes to have anything for the new generation of 1000 fours.

And the new generation of 1000 fours certainly have staked out the claim as being unlimited.  

That's why I continued to have some sparation.  Suzuki still pays for may of it's Un-unlimited bikes in other categories.

There is only one bump class for those bikes...Unlimited GP.  Still limited, but does that satsify the market?  Not as many classes available, but still something in the "pro" category.

Ridgeway...

Yeah, I don't have perfect answers.

AHRMA is a member run and owned organization.  Unfortunately, the individuals that were in power that could make read everyday decisions were force out.  Now all that is left are individuals that form committees that look at things.  Several years ago, I competed in the Formula 500 class.  We had big grids...rules were changed (certain members gained power and changed the rules to reflect what they thought things were all about) and now this same class is unlikely to have many more than eight riders at a venue...sometimes less than five.  Terrible.  

I've butted heads with Kevin Elliott, but at least he will stand by his decision whether it's right or wrong...he'll take responsibility.  That can be a bigger help than a commitee.  Ultimately, business gets done that way.

Thoughts?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     SD, Something else to consider is when they run the 1 day format, will there be enough time to get all the practices, several qualifying sessions, and all the classes in during the day (and still leave a time 'cushion' for delays)? Also what classes would get combined on a single day event schedule, and would it be feasible (and safe) combinations? :)

[OmniGLH]

it did cause me to question what the reward is for being bumped to Expert and having no chance of competing with the top few guys.

Not to pick on you, but I'm going to use what you said as an example.  Please don't take this to heart, or let it discourage you.

This is the wrong kind of attitude to have when trying to go racing, IMO.  You shouldn't be looking at the leaders and saying, "I have no chance... why should I bother?"  Instead, you should look at it as, "What to do I have to do to get to that level?  How can I beat him?"

Racing is about improving.  My thoughts are that you should always strive to make it to the top.  Discouraging youself from the get-go with "I'll *never* catch that guy" attitude won't help you any.  Be realistic - YES... don't expect to win an AMA national your first time on the track... but don't give up before you even try.

To me, setting goals and making progress towards achieving them is really what keeps me coming back.  When I started racing, I looked at the expert leaders... Rosno, Gordon, Tez, Weeden, and was like "Wow those guys are fast... I hope I can beat them some day."  Now, I haven't beat them yet... but it's definitely confidence inspiring to start looking at the guys that you look up to and think to yourself, "Ya know, they're not THAT fast..."  ;)

If you're looking for a class where you can definitely win - then why even bother?  Just go run NESBA or one of the many other trackday organizations.  There, everybody is a winner.

[Super Dave]

Don't have answers for that.  I think the one day format is kind of ridiculous.

Want some people to show up?  Offer money.

That was how FUSA got to a hot start in 2000 when SFX bought it (and CCE bought up SFX)...big purses.  John Ulrich was commenting about the $50,000 team owner bonus that he got for winning the championship at Road America.

So, one day format...still I have no idea.  Last year I got the fuel rules changed so you can actually run pump gas and racing fuel that you could potentially buy at a reasonable cost at the race track.  

I don't see anyone thinking that they should try racing CCS club events for any given length of time.  For what ends?  Guys are turned away for various reasons.  There is no good return for trying to put together any kind of real local or regionalized effort (or national for that matter), so why not make some changes to really pull riders in from the track days (one of the real pulls against race licensing) and give riders that aren't God Awful Fast a place to enjoy themselves and to learn, and a place where the fast guys can duke it out for some fair money.

Is $350 too much for a win.?  It certainly might cover a few races and dinner.  

[Ridgeway]

No offense taken.

I see your point, and I do certainly strive to be as good a rider as I can, given the time and funds that I have available to dedicate to the sport.

I'm just trying to be realistic in my expectations so that I don't set myself up for frustration and disapointment if I'm not a regular top-5 finisher out of the gate.  I could see this leading to a quick exit from the sport, or crashing my brains out, riding over my head.

I don't need to win, (though that is of-course the goal).  The big draw for me is the thrill of competetion.  I fully expect to enjoy myself whether battling for 10th or 1st.  I just hope that there are others out there of comparable skill to battle with!

[Super Dave]

How about this for an pro pay out...

1   $350
2   $180
3   $150
4   $140
5   $130
6   $120
7   $ 95
8   $ 80
9   $ 70
10 $ 70
11 $ 60
12 $ 60
13 $ 50
14 $ 50
15 $ 50

Total $1655

What's the current break down on the ULGP purse for a $70 fee?  It's a $1000, I know that.  Last Blackhawk 24 guys started at $70 each...that's $1680-$1000 purse=$680 to "operate" the race.

I'd figure a $100 fee for this all day long.  Figure that we loose a couple of guys...22 guys at $100 each...$2200-$1655 purse=$520 to operate the race.  

If more guys decide that the have an opportunity of getting more money, all their entry or some of it back, would entries increase beyond our non-scientific example?

[Super Dave]

Who wouldn't like to get $50 of an entry fee back when you finish 15th for a $100 entry?

GTU pays nothing for sixth...no tire money, no nothin'...Costs $70...and a rear tire.