SD's new AM/EX idea...

[H-man]

I agree with and applaud the aims that you bulleted [getting in the business mode this morning by turning nouns into verbs ;)] Dave.

The reason I mentioned what may seem like a fine point (the colour of the number plates) is to try keep all the racers who may currently participate in organizations other than CCS and/or avoid them/us from needing 2 sets of body work due to different colour plates.

I'm thinking the easier it is for a smooth switch back and forth, we may draw other racers too.

It may be early in the game to discuss this in any detail, but I do believe it will need to be addressed.

Your friendly, neighborhood
   H-man

[Super Dave]

Ok, so here's a question...

Would it be reasonable for "novices" to practice with the "amateur/sportsman" racers?

[Super Dave]

So, lets consolidate this a bit...

Change of CCS rules to:

2.2.4 Riders will be issued Regional Series licenses as Novice, Sportsman, or Expert
Call them what you will, this is just an idea.

A.  CCS Officials will issue Expert licenses to those riders with proven experience or ability as follows:

(1.)  Applicats who are renewing a CCS Expert license or who are applying with an Expert license from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Pretty easy.  If you are, you will be, right?  Additionally, we've added the "novice" rating.

B.  CCS Officials will issue Sportsman licenses to those riders with safe and reasonable ability and experience as follows:

(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Amateur (as per current nomenclature) or who are applying with an amateur license from one of the racing organizations listed in section 2.2.1

Ok, this is new, but it's kind of the same...if you're a current amateur, well, you're gonna be in the current new system, etc.  Pretty basic.

(2.)  Any Novice Rider who in the opinion of CCS Officials has safe and reasonable ability.

There's the window.  At some point, a rider may just be "too fast" for a novice class.  They may not be "seasoned" in the experienced way, but they may certainly have safe and reasonable ability.  I think it's fair to say, move them to Sportsman.  There are no rewards other than personal in the Novice class anyway.  (And often that's all there is anywhere else anyway...LOL!)

C.  CCS Officials will issue Novice licenses to riders that meet any of the following criteria:

(1.)  Riders that are applying with Provisional Amateur/Novice licenses from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1

Again, pretty basic...  

(2.)  Riders applying with a certificate indicating completion of an approved Riders School.

(3.)  Riders applying with a CCS Sport Rider card.

This make sense?  Start 'em out in the new stuff.  Get them some experience.  Think of it as a longer riding school...

Eliminate line 2.2.5 and replace with the following STATUS CHANGE lines...

2.2.5  STATUS CHANGES -  Riders who change in status during the season will not carry points to their new status

I figure that it's a whole new ball game, so why carry it.  Novices will not have points anyway.

A.  Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.

Ok, THIS one is the big one.  

Some riders may just feel out gunned in expert races because of ability, finances, time, opportunity, etc.  Why make a guy run around in somethingth place racing with no one?  The amateur/sportsman classes will only be slightly slower at the top, but the broader range of speeds in the class certainly opens up the opportunity for "racing"...and that part of the fun.  Is this why we loose some riders after those couple of years?  

This will allow more riders to feel as though there is an even playing field for them.  There have been some celebrated opportunities for some riders to stay amateur or to move from expert when seemingly they were reasonably competitive.  Give everyone the opportunity to choose their destiny....?

B.  Sportsman riders must petition to be moved to Expert.  Riders who in the opinion of CCS Officials has the ability and reasonable experience for Expert competition will be moved to Expert.  CCS reserves the right to deny Expert Status to any Sportsman rider that may not meet this criteria.

Again, big.

Prior rules dictated amatuer riders moving up after scoring 500 points in a 12 month period, winning a Series Championship, or finishing in the top five in any class at the Race of Champions.

The status change would fall into the hands of the rider.  I would suppose that there needs to be some criteria.  Times, finishes, something.  Certainly, a list of riders could be made that gives them the opportunity to elect to take the change.  Some will take it.  Some might not.

Why would someone?  The opportunity for the purse, qualifying, etc.  Why would someone not do it?  Lack of opportunity to race regularly, not feeling ready to race against potentially faster riders, or just not wanting to...

[Super Dave]

C.  Sportsman riders may petition to be moved to Novice.  Riders must show proof of inexperience or a lapse in competition

Yeah, this may really help some of those riders that struggle.  I have seen riders that are more concerned about who or what is going to pass them and when.  It's scary for the rider (and how they get that much intestinal fortitude to continue sometimes amazes me), scary for the one passing, and probably scary to the corner workers and officials.  So, give them the opportunity to race with less pressure.

D.  Novice riders will be offered the opportunity to move to Sportsman status with proof of safe and reasonable ability and experience after a minimum of two events.

Ok, I personally though there should be a minimum and a maximum, but after the input from everyone...I think I'd like a minimum, but a maximum...I'll leave it off.

Classes...Sportsman - Leave it the classes and fees same as current.  Fun and racing.

Novice...Very minimal classes with very reasonable entry fees..  This is not a destination tier.  We want to build a safe and level sportsman competitor.

Expert.  Fewer classes, deeper purse in ALL classes, higher entry fees, qualifying, etc.  This is the aspiration class.  Yes, there will be opportunities there that will be very inticing.  No expert will make a living here, but there will be some that might at least break even.  Maybe they will move on to something bigger too.  

Some racers run out of motivation and finances.  Don't make 'em go away because they don't have money and all.  Let them move into the sportsman ranks.  There won't be the financial rewards, but there will still be racing and the feeling of community.

How's it look?

There will be other rules that I'll have to re write that are related, but this is a good start.

[Super Dave]

The short version...

2.2.4 Riders will be issued Regional Series licenses as Novice, Sportsman, or Expert  
 
A.  CCS Officials will issue Expert licenses to those riders with proven experience or ability as follows:
 
(1.)  Applicats who are renewing a CCS Expert license or who are applying with an Expert license from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1  
 
B.  CCS Officials will issue Sportsman licenses to those riders with safe and reasonable ability and experience as follows:
 
(1.)  Applicants who are renewing a CCS Amateur (as per current nomenclature) or who are applying with an amateur license from one of the racing organizations listed in section 2.2.1  
 
(2.)  Any Novice Rider who in the opinion of CCS Officials has safe and reasonable ability.
 
C.  CCS Officials will issue Novice licenses to riders that meet any of the following criteria:
 
(1.)  Riders that are applying with Provisional Amateur/Novice licenses from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1   
 
(2.)  Riders applying with a certificate indicating completion of an approved Riders School.
 
(3.)  Riders applying with a CCS Sport Rider card.  
 
2.2.5  STATUS CHANGES -  Riders who change in status during the season will not carry points to their new status  
 
A.  Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.
  
B.  Sportsman riders must petition to be moved to Expert.  Riders who in the opinion of CCS Officials has the ability and reasonable experience for Expert competition will be moved to Expert.  CCS reserves the right to deny Expert Status to any Sportsman rider that may not meet this criteria.
 
C.  Sportsman riders may petition to be moved to Novice.  Riders must show proof of inexperience or a lapse in competition
 
D.  Novice riders will be offered the opportunity to move to Sportsman status with proof of safe and reasonable ability and experience after a minimum of two events.

[H-man]

I like it a lot Dave. :D

When it comes to the part that reads, "Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.",  allow me to suggest that this be limited in some way.

Possibly once the shift from Expert to Sportsman is made, the rider must remain in Sportsman for the remainder of that (or the upcoming) season; or allow a rider to switch down and back up only once; or make multiple changes allowable but after the first change, subsequent changes would require review by a CCS officialit upon.  This can be fodder for additional discussion.

   H.

[Super Dave]

Here's a link to the thread I have in General about purses, classes, etc.

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1094136146

[Super Dave]

I like it a lot Dave. :D

When it comes to the part that reads, "Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.",  allow me to suggest that this be limited in some way.

I think ultimately, you'd leave those decisions in the hands of the race director.  I probably need to add section 2.2.6 that gives CCS the ability to make sure flip-flops don't happen.

[Clay]

Looking at your other post, I like the class ideas.  HOWEVER, a big NO to one qualifying round going to riders who ride in both SS and the GP classes.  I don't want someone to be able to take their bike setup for true GP rules and qualify against me on my bike that's setup for true SS rules.  It's highly unfair.  We need qualifying for both classes.  OR, qualify for GP and use pre-reg/points like WERA for gridding the SS classes.  

[Clay]

BTW, you need to sticky the other thread and close it and point all discussion to this thread.  It stinks having to go back and forth between the two.  :P

Another thing.  What about those Am's this year that want to go ex?  I'd really like to go straight to the ex class and skip the sportsman class.  I might not be blazingly fast, but my goal is to be the fastest and I'll only learn to be that by racing against the fastest.  

[Super Dave]

Basically, think of current amateur being sportsman...  Novice would be a step below.  A riders ability to move between tiers would be easier.  Now, well...  It too me thirteen months to get certificates to refund entries.  

Qualifying.  Really need it.  I was just throwing out ideas.

If it was done by category, the times would carry.  So, if you're in Formula GP (previously MWGP) you'd qualify in MW qualifying on your MWGP bike.  Conversely, if you were in Sportbike (previously MWSS) you'd qualify in MW qualifying.  Let's say you race your MWSS bike in MWGP too (Sportbike and Formula GP)...the time you do is good for both.  Of course the time for the Formula GP bike is not good for that bike if it's not eligible in that class.

Does that make sense?  I guess, each bike should have an opportunity to qualify.  Each bike to qualify for each race?  How many tires would that cost?  That's the quandry.  If I'm racing my R6 in Sportbike, Formula Sportbike, and Unlimited Grand Prix...I'd really like to go do one good session with one new rear tire for qualifying.

[jp233]

Ideally Superbike, Supersport, Twins, maybe a singles class are all that's needed. True GP bikes? How many are there?  Not enough for a true gp class anymore. :( Sorry.

Obviously you haven't attended a FUSA event weekend where the USGPRU was running. The last 2 events (VIR and Barber) there have been bigger 125 and 250 grids than all the FUSA classes. There are plenty of GP bikes out there - guys like me just want more classes to run in.