Friday (Thursday) Practices?

[Super Dave]

I've done the track rental thing, Sean.  It was fine when we did that.  We had a staff of thirteen instructors.  I've written the checks, and I've written the checks just like you when the entries didn't cover the cost of the track rental alone. 

Road America?  No, because I never thought it was a good track to teach at.  Maybe WERA should race there?  Does it matter?  Probably not.

Some people just need to do things in different places at different times.  That wasn't my idea, but I was approached by someone that wanted instruction in that way.  And that was how that started. 

I think the majority of track day riders and racers are just looking to try to improve, but they don't have $1000 to spend, let alone $1500, $5000, or $12000 to rent a track let alone find someone that can show up and help.  You've got sub factory teams going to track days for practice too.  They could rent the track alone too.  It is a slot on the track.  If someone decides to bring me to the track with the organizatons approval, another slot is filled and the organization gets help paying their bill that day even more.  Everytime this was done, it was at the approval of people that could make those decisions.   

I understand the bills that NESBA needs to pay.  They charge what they charge.  The Road America dates aren't random placement.  And that is the feeling of myself and others.  Sure, we should band together and rent the track ourself and charge what we want to charge, but that would take more money from our racing "budgets".  Back to the traditional challenges.

[Mongo]

Odd, I could swear I remember you advertising that you could help people out for a fee at other orgs events.  That doesn't sound like riders asking you to do it, it was you asking riders to hire you.

Just because you feel it's a viable business practice doesn't make it any less parasitic. 

[Dutch110]

Dave it got personal when I offered up an explanation as to how those RA dates came to exist on the NESBA calendar and you called me a liar. No one to blame but yourself for that my freind. Very predictably you started lobbing hand grenades when called out. NESBA is horrible, NESBA isn't not for profit, NESBA is the Death Star of track day orgs, NESBA stole my puppy and made me pee my pants. I was genuinely interested in having an intelligent discussion on the matter and informing those less informed as to the realities of the situation concerning the hows and whys surrounding those events. You decided to get passive agressive and go on the attack. I find it incredibly humorous that you now are in shock and awe as to my response. Oh well. I like pie. Good luck in your future endeavors. Really. I mean it.

[truckstop]

I don't want to interrupt the warm fuzzies here, but for those seeking other options, there's a trackday at RA on Thursday, June 7th for $150.

[251am]

I like pie.

Rhubarb pie?

[G 97]

Dave, I did not put any words in your mouth.  Here is an earlier E-mail that of an exchange we had back in 2003 on this subject.  I scanned it in so it has some glitches. What I typed in black what you typed in red.  It is a bit of ajumble because of the cut and paste used from prior E-mail that you used to quote me from but it serves its purpose.  This is from a 3 page E-mail.  Your EXACT words in red at the bottom.    "I DON'T DO TRACKDAYS"  I have the original I can show you as well.   


-----Original Message-----
From: Visionsports, Inc. - Dave Rosno Imailto:visionsprt@netwurx.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 4:32 AM
To: Cloyd Garth
Subject: Re: BFH NESBA event

Dave, Let me try and clarify a few issues.
Concerning the trackside vending issue. I think we are looking at 1\'110 separate issues with this. Supporting dealers are separate from trackside vending. MD racinglMatt Drucker has been the trackside NESBA support business since the inception of the Midwest region. He has attended lOO% of the events over the previous three years. I can tell you that the first two years were a huge struggle with regard to profitability for Matt. In fact he lost money. For this reason, from the begimling we thought it was critical to obtain MD Racings track side service by offering an exclusive agreement in exchange for MattIs commitment to attend 100% of our events. I can't tell you how many venders have requested for NESBA to pay them to provide their services at the track for our members.

But the issue of senring your customers with information is the issue. And the point is that this all takes place on a closed competition course where individuals are responsible for their own actions. He tries to give information, you try to give information, other rillers try to give information,. it is the responsibility of the individual to execute properly. If someone wants me to come give them information, I pay for my track time to NESBA, what's the d~fference?
4/18/2003

.JFH NESBA event
If John Ulrich shows up, would that be different?
How about Monte Lutz?
Keith Code?
John Hopkins?


PaQe 2 of2



Where do you want to start restricting your structure? Let me know so I can look for that information on your site.

I have no problem with members exchanging ideas and giving feedback with one another. This happens all the time. lfeel the difference is receiving formal instruction from a separate motorcycle riding school/track day instructor(non NESBA) while participating at a NESBA event. This is separfJte from signing up to ride in a class and in the process you make a few observations/suggestions with a fellow member. You clearly are not "a.llY person". Would you permit me to attend a VisionSpO!i day and position myself to instruct with some of your students?


Sure, as long as you paid for your entry, that woulfl be the enrollee's decision, and a decision for those students. As long as you follow the "rules of the road" and don't hinder the regular instruction that we have going on, that's not a problem.

In any event, its late, I'm tired. You are correct, I would never restrict anyone from attending one of our events as long as they abide by the guidelines that we see fit. I guess from my stand point I would at least like to establish some line of communications and guidelines. Nothing complicated but I'm sure you understand that my first commitment is with NESBA and our members. I hope you will make the event and we can discuss more ill person.


I probably won't attend
Weather, one, wear on machinery, two. And unless someone needs me, I don't do track days. I was at the NESBA event the last year working with someone. You didn't seem to notice then.
I honestly don't understand the lack of security the you or NESBA is feeling. You sell track time. CCS doesn't complain on their track days, nor would STT, or anyone else.
You don't offer any "instruction", so is it just me? If NESBA is now going to restrict who comes to your days for what ever reasons, you need to make it pretty clear in your enrollments to your customers and potential customers.
SD
4/18/2003

[G 97]

And the original E-mail that I sent.   Again I scanned it so it has some goofy text etc.  But I do have an original print out.  This is from my John Deeer days and I no longer have JD E-mail.

Cloyd Garth    r 0(( You (t R. £. At) ~ ,J(.., 'Pl ~A-$vt?£
   .. -.-.-.-.- .•. - ......•............ , .. '    '.'.'.'.'.'.' .•. '.' .•.•. ".-.- .•.•. -.- .•.•. -.- .•. - .•.•. -.- .......................•...•.....•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•..•.•...•. - .•.•.•. -.-.-.- .............•.•.•.•.•.•...•. '.'.'.".-.'.'.'.- ................•...•.•.•...............................•.........•.•......... -.-    - .............•.•.•.•.....•.•...•.•.•..•.•.•.•. - .•. -.-.-.-.-.- .•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•.•. - .......•.•...•.•.•.•.•.•.•.....................................•.•.•.•.•.................................................•.•.•.•...•..............................
   From:    Cloyd Garth    "CL+ /l!l..(..bJev\( :!: F Y\:.v ,.JAve. A~Y 1=-1:.£0 •&:I.(k 4s..:r AIi.vAVS
   Sent:    Thursday,April17,200311:05 /L.pPI.Jl.~'~:+~ \lo ...• r- Pe/'s{hz&:vC<.... o,J +~:N7c;
   To:    •visionsprt@netwurx.net'    Tl4v.1.I...lI<S Jl\A,1.
Subject: SFH NESSA event
Super Dave, Sorry to hear about the R6. At least you had enough sense to get rid of the 01 GSXR600. I don't think mine was as good as others from the start.
I was doing some lurking on the CCS SSS and saw a post about yourself and VisiOl1Sports providing instruction at DIU,. ..• NESSA event with the potential of charging a fee for this instruction. This is a tough area for me because I am all abol1! improving skill sets and NESSA does not provide any fmmal Control Riding instruction with our Advance group. With U
   being stated I have some concerns as well ..       ' .. ~
   .    ~
,,'
My concerns lie with any liability issues that possibly could arise by any implied consent towards VisionSports from NESSA.
There is also a perception created among our members that NESSA will not or does not provided adequate instruction etc., which is not the case. In the past NESSA has conducted Advanced riding instruction and classes. When we moved into the Midwest it was decided to focus more on the track day aspect while still providing beginner instruction and first time track instruction as to not directly compete with the existing Race-type schools available.
I just feel that there is a slight distinction between actively charging for VisionSports services while at a NESSA event verses providing feedback and advice between NESSA members riding in the same class together. I have no desire to prevent/prohibit anyone from attending any of our events - far from it. What L cannot allow are third parties using a NESSA event in order to position themselves in a manner of providing fee based instruction. This is also not to say that we could possibly discuss something for some of our future events. I am all about giving our members a value added track day experience while growing our sport at the same time.
I hope you can appreciate NESSA's position on this.
Garth A. Cloyd
Area Sales Manager John Deere Credit
Voice 1-888-267-3444 Ext. 74296 Cell 309-945-2107

[G 97]

And then my final reply that I also quoted myself on from the prioe E-mail.   Dave, I have never prohibited you from ever attending any NESBA dates.  I even tried to open a point of discussion towards developing a program with each other but you refused.   It is what it is.

Why is it that I get the feeling from you that you seem to think that you are more important or critical to your clientele than what NESBA is to our clientele?   Given the fact that there is a huge cross over I would rather work with you in some capacity than against but I don't think you are willing.  So we have what we have.  So be it.


=======================================================================


Cloyd Garth


   From:    Cloyd Garth
   Sent:    Friday, April 18, 2003 10:37 AM
   To:    Visionsports, Inc. - Dave
Subject: RE: BFH NESBA event

I did notice last year and Mr. member  ran it by me and what he was trying to accomplish. In this ~pecific case he is In Advance and I agreed with him as to what he wanted to do. You know Dave the issue is just not concerning you. We also have to consider setting precedents. I just want to make sure that it is consistent with what NESBAjs qoing and what we are about. Not a problem with you but their are some out there who fancy themselves as all knowing etc. Bottom line is that I was asking for a clarification on the BSS post and then we could discuss from there. It's not about y_our perception of NESBA feelin9- a lack of security. I'ts about delivering a quality service to our membership and befor we let any third parties entities get involved it just makes good sence to discuss specifics. That all.

I suppose I will also ask you would Keith Code let you show up and instruct at one of his classes as Visionsports.? I can see already that this is blown way out of proportion. Later.


Again:In any event, its late; I'm tired. You are-correct, I would never restrid anyone from attending one of our events as long as they abide by the guidelines that we see fit. I guess from my stand point I would at least like to establish some line of communications and guidelines. Nothing complicated but I'm sure you understand that my first commitment is with NESBA and our members. I hope you will make the event and we can discuss more in person.
Garth A. Cloyd
Area Sales Manager John Deere Credit
Voice 1-888-267-3444 Ext. 74296 Cell 309-945-2107

[Jeff]

I've noticed Garth...  You're a tired guy.

[tstruyk]

I have some questions and comments...

NESBA makes money, call it what you will but there is profit.  How it falls with the IRS and how its percieved are 2 different things entirely.   I asked my die hard Christian friend and he agrees, profit is not a sin.  If calling it non profit helps market or substantiate fee's charged...well... I'm in sales, I can see where you come from there.  But what's that old saying?  If it walks like a Duck... 

Is RA a huge money maker?  I wouldn't think so.  But I don't think you lose money.  The potential is there to lose money for sure, but that's business.  From a business standpoint, I personally would try to avoid getting into this discussion.  Not sure why the nesbians chose to jump into a, really, harmless discussion about available practice sessions for the weekends races.  I am sure this isn't the first time someone has complained about membership fee's (as I have had the same discussion myself).  When you run a company you cant make everyone happy, just a simple, unavoidable fact.  Would a one-event membership be beneficial to NESBA?  It could!  Give preferential registration to full members, one event members get the left over slots, NESBA makes more money... or whatever it is you do with income over expense... everyone is happy.   There may be something I am missing in the equation... but really it's not my job to know, so these are my assumptions.  NESBA chooses to not entertain this option for whatever reason, and that reason is theirs.  But instead of just letting it go,  its discussed on an open forum, claims are made, ego's are bruised, and it turns into just another post on another forum that won't resolve anything.  If the discussion was just left alone, it would have died 2 pages ago.  Instead people feel the need to do damage control on their program. 

Personally, a $75 membership fee isn't something I am interested in.  I have tried to explain the "impression" I get from NESBA to people that ask for my input on which TD org I would suggest.  Honestly, I cant put my finger on it, but its not for me.  I choose other TD providers for my preseason needs as I'm with Dave... not the best allocation of resources.  I make exceptions when its something that I'll get specific enjoyment out of, or I have a specific need for (example, buying my Dad a TD for his B-Day so he and I can share some time on the track, or tuning up for a race at a track I haven't seen yet, or SD's school...) but that doesn't seem to require membership with NESBA.  Would it have been more convenient occasionally?  Sure it would have, but I make my decisions, just like NESBA does... and these decisions are mine.

Yes a track run TD at RA prior to the CCS/ASRA weekend would be nice, doubt I would go as its another night hotel, another set of tires, another fee... but it would be nice to have a reasonable option available for more practice time.

Garth... your implication that track days are beneath those that feel they are a waste of resources is (IMO) what Dave was referring to.  I don't jump at the opportunity to run a TD for the same reason and I would be the last person to say a TD is "beneath" me... tires, gas, brake pads all get used (not to mention wear on the machine itself).  For those that race on a tight budget, TD's don't make sense... again back to personal decision.

NESBA decided not to allow VRS to run programs at their events... fine, its your sandbox, you can decide who plays and how they play.  I respect that.  My question is this.  Lets say I where to hire SD for a one on one TD.  I paid both slots (mine and his) along with whatever he and I agreed on... does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of?  Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school?  If so how?  I tried to read through the posts and can't seem to come up with the reason as to why an arrangement couldn't be reached.  I have been to and seen SD's schools run and they aren't the least bit intrusive to the flow of the normal TD. Either in a one on one format, or in a group setting.  Just curious as to where the disagreement lies.

Thanks for clarifying

Tim

[nesba]

NESBA decided not to allow VRS to run programs at their events... fine, its your sandbox, you can decide who plays and how they play.  I respect that.  My question is this.  Lets say I where to hire SD for a one on one TD.  I paid both slots (mine and his) along with whatever he and I agreed on... does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of?  Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school?  If so how?  I tried to read through the posts and can't seem to come up with the reason as to why an arrangement couldn't't be reached.  I have been to and seen SD's schools run and they aren't't the least bit intrusive to the flow of the normal TD. Either in a one on one format, or in a group setting.  Just curious as to where the disagreement lies.


1. does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of?
   
    A> No offense, just not allowed.

2. Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school?

   A> Not sure of all the circumstances

3.  We have rules that our instructors follow, our members understand these rules.  If we have someone come that doesn't follow the rules we have an issue.  If someone wants to teach you as a school or special instruction,  have them rent the track and teach.

Bob

[tstruyk]

so is it an issue of him profiting from attending your event?  Or the difference in instruction?  I might be mis-interpreting your answer as it was a bit curt, but if its simply not allowed, wouldnt the circumstances be moot?  Also if its simply not allowed where do you draw the line?  Is it only "on track" evaluation and instruction?

not trying to be difficult, I am just missing the reasoning.  I process information better when I understand it, I sucked at algebra.