Friday (Thursday) Practices?

[251am]

Dave if we are so awful why did you try and parasite off of our events for so long before being told to go run your own business on your own dime? Seems to me you have other motives in this discussion but maybe that's just me.

I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.

   " Hulk Hogan climbs up onto the ropes. Uh-oh!! Look out! He's going for a half-triple-twist-back-flipped-skull-crusher drop kick!! " 


  They tried to teach me how to type. Did not work.
 
  I give 2 thumbs up to NESBA, their tech. guys in particular who found lots of loose hardware on my bike after a certain shop was done with it.    Old news here, but kudos to Garth and his crews that saved my ass @ R. Am..   

 

[Super Dave]

Dave if we are so awful why did you try and parasite off of our events for so long before being told to go run your own business on your own dime? Seems to me you have other motives in this discussion but maybe that's just me.

Wow, that's pretty personal.  And I was done with arguing.

I'll start history for you, Dutch.  I was teaching schools before there were track days.  I have been an independant entity renting race tracks for my programs, but I'm small program that doesn't cover itself under the veil of being non-profit, which doesn't mean you don't make a profit.

There were riders that had a need.  A need for some different instruction that others couldn't provide, and I had the ability to do it small doses.  VIR, Summit Point, Heartland Park Topeka, Blackhawk Farms Raceway, Infineon Raceway, Road America, Putnam Park, Grattan Raceway...these are places where I traveled to work with riders. 

Two riders, independently, asked me to help them at two different track days.  The first one went fine, the second one was a struggle for various reasons.  The rider really struggled, and they had unbelieveable bike issues that they didn't know about.  Basically, they had a GSXR600 that was probably slower than an FZR400.

Following that, I've been asked not to help at NESBA events, and I've done that. 

If you'd like to be personal, at least focus on your history.

[Super Dave]

I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.

Dutch MacKenzie
Director of Mid Atlantic Operations
NESBA...non profit...

Um, wow...

[Super Dave]

Where does the money go?  To pay bills.  To give you an idea I believe JUST track rental is over 10k per day for RA.  Then add in corner workers, then medical, then insurance, then gate people and security, then then then then.... 

BTW - $80 for a day of practice unless you have so many riders you get no viable track time is ludicrous.

Totally agreed. 

However, I know of quite a few race tracks that offer practice days prior to events, Road America being one of them.  Unless someone has rented the date or dates. 

[r1owner]

Don't we get some "regular" practice sessions with CCS in the mornings?

Are you saying it will be almost 300 bucks to practice the day before if you're not a NESBA member?

[Super Dave]

Yeah, Scott, pretty close.  Not that much, but close.  There will be CCS practice Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 

Road America has AMA practice, the AMA doesn't do practice days, but Road America runs one.  It costs $200, but it would be less than cost prior to the CCS event at Road America.  And it won't be practice, it will be a track day...choose your skill level. 

As for CCS renting that date, I'll play devils advocate...for other racing organizations too...

A racing organization is renting a block of days.  Their rental rate is based on several things, some of them no always recognizable.  Road America is certainly charging CCS a racing rate for the track.  They might even be charging them a higher rate because Road America is figuring that they are going to get more spectators in July.  If CCS wanted that date, Thursday practice, it might be cost prohibitive.  NESBA is renting two dates at a weekday, track day rate.  Certain areas might be off limits, etc.  Lower rate. 

[r1owner]

Thanks for the info Dave.  Never  been there, but I figure I'll take my chances learning it with the "regular" CCS practice then.

[Super Dave]

Don't have any good recommendations for you.  I always struggle learning new tracks, but I never have much of a budget too.  One could enter the Team Challenge Solo for $175 and potentially get good track time on Friday.  Moto ST is running that weekend too, so the schedule is usually tight.  It takes a long time to get the track cleared and a long time to get around.  I'm not sure how long the races will be, but I have been in 4 lap sprint races, not shortened because of a schedule even, at Road America.  Track time there is a premium.

[G 97]

I'll start history for you, Dutch.  I was teaching schools before there were track days.  I have been an independant entity renting race tracks for my programs, but I'm small program that doesn't cover itself under the veil of being non-profit, which doesn't mean you don't make a profit.


Following that, I've been asked not to help at NESBA events, and I've done that. 

If you'd like to be personal, at least focus on your history.

Dave,   History lesson 101   ;)

Nonprofits generally do not operate to generate profit.  A nonprofit corporation is not prohibited from making a profit, but there are limitations on what it can do with its "profits."    NESBA is not operated under the "viel" of anything.  It truly is not for profit and is operated under such provisions as stipulated by the IRS.

You having your rider's school in existence prior to trackdays existing really has no merit. NESBA is going on 11 years which is longer than most other track day organizations  - but it certainly does not entitle NESBA to anything.

Trackdays were formed because there became a market for them.  A lot of riders wanted to experience getting on the track in a non-competitive atmosphere outside of racing.   Trackday organizations did not create the trackday rider.  The trackday riders created the trackday organizations in order to fulfill a demand in the market place.

I have also extended invites to you to come out and participate in a NESBA event and give instruction as long as it was consistent with NESBA's processes and procedures'.  And you declined, stating that NESBA only provided basically a "track time slot" and basically you should be able to utilize this track time in any manner you see fit.   You also stated that you don't do trackdays because they are a waste of your resources – tires, fuel, and equipment. As if to say they are beneath you.   I never asked you stopped coming - only that you operate under our processes and proceedures just like every other member.

One can also distinguish between economic profit or accounting profit.  In any event, NESBA does not operate "under the viel" of being a non-profit.   

:)

[mx558]

Don't we get some "regular" practice sessions with CCS in the mornings?

Are you saying it will be almost 300 bucks to practice the day before if you're not a NESBA member?

STT a month before, if your not a member its about $205.00 including membership so its a little cheaper and you get free lunch and RedBull

[Super Dave]

Garth, I don't have a beef with you.  You're digging for Dutch I guess.

Non-profit, profit.  Not sure of what the point is.  A for profit company is not guaranteed a profit.  But often individuals connotate the concept of a non-profit as something that does not make a profit.  NESBA is profitable, and one of the things that's a great example of that is your statement that NESBA has been around for eleven years.  Allows NESBA to purchase its insurance in bulk, buy big weekend events, etc.  Honestly, I'm very curious why NESBA needs a non-profit status, and why the "non profit" card gets played.  But that's for another time.  Again, for curiousity, not anything else. 

Dutch was so bold to call me a parasite.

You say my history of putting on schools has no merit, but the fact is that I was teaching riders before NESBA existed.  Quite simply, riders that schools work with are part of the track day and racing market.  Schools are the gateway for some riders to anything on a race track.  Some riders use a track day for their gateway.  Some riders use track days as their spring board to racing, but they can't race without a school.  There is a relationship between everyone.  The racing organizations have been hurt the most because they were the exclusive market at one time, but track days and schools provide new outlets for those that want to "ride a race track".

Track days a waste of my resources?  Then you decide to put words into my mouth...

Here's a good story, motorcycle related by the players but otherwise not.  I had a friend that was wealthy.  We'd do something, and then it would get later in the day and he'd say, "Let's go out and eat dinner.   We'll go dutch."  Well, that means that we each pay for our own dinner.  Well, that wasn't going to work for me because I could go home and eat...and I didn't have any money.  So, I'd reply that I didn't have any money, because I didn't. 

That idea was foreign to him.  "Rick, when I say, 'I don't have any money, that means I don't have any money.  None in my pocket, none at home.  I can't do that."

Similarly, buying an additional track day costs money, tires, gas, and equipment.  I'm not wealthy, nor is my family.  I do what I can on a shoe string that I don't call a budget because it's usually fluctuating in the down position.  So, I recycle used engine oil for diesel and anything I can do to save a few dollars here and there.

Markets...

Yeah, track days were developed as a new niche market.  Schools fill a need too.  I started offering additional programs for "One-On-One" because there was a market where riders wanted that kind of opportunity for a few reasons.

They can't make a specific date or dates.  They aren't learning from osmosis at their track day or racing event.

Twice I did the one on ones at NESBA days.  First time was fine, second time the rider struggled and your staff bounced us between groups.  These were prearranged with you folks prior.   Yeah, it's a track time slot.  Doesn't mean that anyones running counter race or what ever, and we've never had issues other places.  That's the way that is.  I don't know that any other organization has different standards in the multitude of track days from California to the East Coast, so it's really kind of moot.  Doesn't really matter, it is the way it is.  The welcome mat has been available other places, so those have been the options.

Not every rider will think or feel that they got something special from me, but I know there are riders that we've worked with that have been able to stay involved in the sport longer because of it.

I'm just a school.  Ultimately, the riders that we work with stay involved in racing and track days because we give them tools to "not waste their resources", but that allows them to continue spending their money with racing organizations and track day providers...

Even NESBA.

Your welcome.

[Mongo]

Dave - as long as you charged riders for instruction that was held at an event where another person or org was paying the bills - yeah, you're a parasite.  If you're that good rent the track yourself.  If you're not then don't try to sublet on someone else's date.

As for the rest, you really don't know what you're talking about, the vast majority of tracks these days charge a flat rate.  Some charge more for weekends, none really care about racing vs practice.  Trying to compare a track run day to anyone else running one when the track doesn't pay itself rental is ridiculous.  You're effectively trying to say NESBA is bad because they took a date the track could possibly use to run a practice day cheaper than NESBA could afford to.  Gee, what would happend if a car team rented the track?  Or anyone else not allowing bikes for that matter?  Yeah, no bikes on course for any price, yep that's great for the riders.

And guess what, I have no affiliation with any track day org.  I just know the bills they have to pay and I'm not trying to make myself look knowledgeable about things where I have no experience.  But don't let that stop you....  Also - when you decide to start going on about how you've done it back in the day, answer me one question - when was the last time you paid the bills for an event at Road America?