OK, Ive thought about this for a few days, here's my rant. I think if you take a poll of all the racers.....the majority would say that daytona(with both bankings) has little to do with roadracing. :jerkoff: I get that there must be some kind of tradition or reason ($$$) for going there.... ..but to have a national championship decided by horsepower is ridiculous. WOuld could just compare checking accounts and crown champs, or fax in our dyno sheets and crown the champs that way. If you think Im :wah: cause I didn't win won, your mistaken. I had fun. I won my SE championship this season. :biggrin: Yep, you don't have to go.....but I enjoy racing. BUt, DAYTONA HAS FIVE CORNERS AND A CHICANE....FIVE!!!! ::)
I have a few examples to prove my point.
#1 The announcer had to actually use the phrase...."Mavros and WOod are in an epic battle for 3 laps now"...... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
No offense charlie buddy, but I puked in my mouth. If Eric Wood can't pass charlie mavros on a Vespa....the track is a joke. All of us can hold a bike wide open. :thumb:
#2 I have 2 IDENTICALLY prepared R6's. One has 5.2 more hp. That equated to 3.8 seconds per lap. 3.8 seconds PER LAP!!!!!!! ::) THis is just to much of a temptation for most of the guys to stay within the rules in Supersport. Could I protest? Absolutely. I can't afford to protest all of the cheaters. My 'SUPERBIKE" was getting pulled by 1/2 off the "supersport" bikes. Dyno sheets available. Again, Before someone says "you suck out of the chicane"...I did a 54 on the faster bike.
My solution.....Pick a different track every year. VIR, Barber.......RIDERS TRACKS!!!! You're not going to be able to make everyone happy...so move it every year. Give the guys with smaller budgets a chance.
Do a poll. It would make the national championships mean more. Can I get an AMEN??
I couldn't agree more!! :biggrin: :cheers:
5.2 HP does not equal 3.8 seconds on any track, anywhere. There's another variable.
same suspension,tires,air pressure,fairings,rider, .....rode just as hard. No draft help either time. WHen you have to gear for top end ....the added torque helps get you out of those slow corners....not to mention the banking. Trust me the bikes are IDENTICAL other than motor. My lap times vary about .5 a second a lap within a session when there are no other variables, so Im fairly consistent.
You spend what % of the lap at WOT at Daytona? Alright...lets do some math for kicks
5 hp on a 600 is roughly 5% more power. Laps are approximately 2:00. Im guessing on the low side...50% of the lap is WOT. Im sure its more. Thats 5% more power for 60 seconds. 4 seconds is about 3% of a lap. SO....could 5% more power for 60seconds of WOT = a 3% faster lap? My lap timers say so. PLus, like I said ....the added torque out of the slower corners where the gearing sucks...like the horshoe's. I wish it werent true, I wouldn't be typing right now..LOL
i agree daytona sucks
hall, How far apart where we at the line in the rain??? I thought you got there before me.. ..it was CLOSE :thumb:
There is no way that 5 hp equals that much time. I have raced at Daytona against bikes with 15 to 20 hp more than me, with riders that were 50 lbs lighter, and they still only gained about 1-1.5 seconds per lap.
Also, turn one, the dogleg, and the chicane all offer a chance for the rider to make a huge difference.
Quote from: steelcityracer on October 24, 2007, 11:27:22 AM
There is no way that 5 hp equals that much time. I have raced at Daytona against bikes with 15 to 20 hp more than me, with riders that were 50 lbs lighter, and they still only gained about 1-1.5 seconds per lap.
they were not even close to you in skill ....I do agree those are areas to make up time.
i personally like the idea of moving the roc every year. living in the mid atlantic region and making the trip to daytona twice a year gets very expensive. granted it has to be held somewhere that the weather will somewhat cooperate makes it tough to move. why not road atlanta, vir, or barber or some of the other tracks that still have decent weather this time of year. i'm sure that there are tracks in other regions that still have decent ridable weather. one of the reasons i started racing was to get to ride new tracks. they say variety is the spice of life.
I absolutely agree Barber would be an excellent choice as it is such a riders track and doesn't have any real long straights, so HP really doesn't count
yes yes yes....barber in 08!!!!
Quote from: wolf44 on October 24, 2007, 12:16:02 PM
yes yes yes....barber in 08!!!!
It's got my vote! :thumb:
Quote from: JBraun on October 24, 2007, 10:48:54 AM
5.2 HP does not equal 3.8 seconds on any track, anywhere. There's another variable.
+1k
Quote from: d-wire on October 24, 2007, 11:48:07 AM
they were not even close to you in skill ....I do agree those are areas to make up time.
Actually, I have to admit that they were at least equal in skill to me, if not better. The riders I am talking about are the lopez brothers from the Florida region, and this was at the 06 ROC.
daytona sucks. i will not attend the ROC next year if its at daytona. you can quote me on that. you will however find me @ RD ATL the week prior to the ROC at another Natl Championship weekend...CCS has access to some of the best tracks in the country to host the national championship and daytona is chosen?....Id rather drive 12 hours to VIR for a ROC than 4 hrs to daytona again...my money is better spent elsewhere.
HP is pretty damn important at Road Atlanta also.
HP was definitely the determining factor in my lightweight races. The same guy I was 4 seconds a lap faster than in the Team Challenge on the same super sport bike, later pulled me by 1.5 seconds a lap in the race on our respective bikes. I ran my ass off and reeled him in on the infield every lap, but he simply walked away on the banking, he had more HP. Very similar bikes, 1000ds vs Bimota DB5. He won on pure horsepower. He even beat our SE LW Champion on pure HP.
On the first lap of the race, I literally waved at him as I passed him coming out of International Bus Stop, he waved back on the banking... Nothing I could do. I ran a 2.08 on a SuperSport. He ran a high 2.06. He and I are very equal riders on other tracks like JGP and RA. I'm always a second a lap faster than him. It was all bike at Daytona.
Guess I'll think of Daytona more like a drag race. Hey, maybe we can get some of those guys on the 'Busas to give exhibition runs and we can watch. Better yet, let's save the tires and just do the Dyno drag race and be done with it online. We can just submit our HP/Torque readings for each class. Then we can scratch the travel expenses and the crazy Daytona bike week jazz.
Well, it was fun, but disheartening to sit with the throttle pinned and be unable to hold in the draft. When you've spent a deep 5 figures into a season and watch the championship walk away and get handed to someone with almost no points on a "faster bike", it's very disheartening...
I'm done bitching... the GNF was way better competition and way more fun and they had more food and seats at the banquet too, lesson learned about CCS Daytona, I know what I'm doing next year.
Flame on...
Obviously, HP is very important at Daytona. Because I've always rode stock motor bikes, I've never bothered. I've always contended the ROC should be at a "riders track", and I've also thought to be fair to everyone, we should use a track as close to the geographical center of the U.S. as possible. After tremendous research( :biggrin:), I found that Heartland Park would be a perfect solution(I might be biased). Seriously, I like the idea of it moving every year or every few years, and I think Heartland Park is a good option(SCCA has held their national championships there the last 2 years). Barber would be great too. Texas has a couple of awesome new tracks that CMRA is not running, and that would be close to home for Kevin. I do believe that anything other than Daytona would probably be better for most racers.
yes...riders track, centrally located....I immediately think
GATEWAY!!!!! :)
I love the avatar Dan! That Pedrosa video damn near had me crying the other day. What a squid:)
Any place closer and more technical would be great. Barber, Blackhawk, Grattan... :thumb:
Quote from: steelcityracer on October 24, 2007, 02:25:17 PM
HP is pretty damn important at Road Atlanta also.
moderatly, but not significantly. Its got one pretty long straight away, but it has a 40mph entry and a huge braking zone at the end so corner exit speed and braking ability outweigh anything you gain with a few extras ponies. Hell we ran taller gearing at Nashville than we did road atlanta.
Quote from: Jack_Brock on October 24, 2007, 04:04:57 PM
I love the avatar Dan! That Pedrosa video damn near had me crying the other day. What a squid:)
I remember last year when Hayden almost did that....at least he saved it.
In the longer clip you can see hopkins in the background, he just looked at him on the ground and shook his head
Quote from: superspud on October 24, 2007, 04:46:44 PM
Any place closer and more technical would be great. Barber, Blackhawk, Grattan... :thumb:
Ha Ha Gratten...
Even with a partial repave, that track is a sub-par track.
Fun as Hell...
But still, Sub-par.
XIII
P.S. I would race there :D
This has been a subject of discontent for a long time. Write the letters to CCS and vote with your wallet. If people don't show up at Daytona, CCS will leave. It's a very expensive track to rent and CCS needs lots of people to pay the bill. Like other tracks they have quit using......if you don't show, they will leave it.
I made it in to the 53's and my bike only made 112hp on a dynojet 2 weeks ago. so I dont think HP is all that much a factor.
Ok well heres my .02 worth..Ive been under powered all year on my STOCK 03 Honda 600..My problem seems to be the same as alot of other guys..I have beaten some really talented guys with strong motors this year in the amatuer ranks..some of them on certain tracks havent been within 10 seconds to me at the end of races, yet we show up at daytona and a couple of them beat me in the middleweight superbike race, it wss in the dry, im not talking about my brother and Greg Bordeleau, those guys can ride good..It seemed that the only way i was going to do anything was for the rain to come..or get on a built bike..so thats what i did in the heavyweight races on Sunday..i borrowed a 750 from Robby Dougherty to even up the odds with the competition..I won both races!! It took me borrowing a bike that i had never even sat on to win a Natl Championship..thats total bullshit..my brother deserved a fair shot and so did Greg Bordeleau and so did i in the middleweight stuff but we didnt get it because money and HP won the damn races..here is an idea..if they wont move the ROC from daytona then why not put a HP# maximum for each class..and the top 3 go to the dyno after each race..if you run back to back races then your bike sits in tech until you are finished..it shouldnt be a big deal considering ASRA does it with there National guys..all i want is for everyone to have a fair shot at winning, thats all..Come on ASRA/CCS we are your income so why dont you guys do something about this crap yall call a Race of Champions because thsts not what it is, its a Race of Money and Motors and its PATHETIC..Racing fairly shouldnt be alot to ask, is it?? Or i agree with moving to other tracks so HP isnt as much a factor and then we will see who can REALLY ride..
Daytona does have some advantages for bikes with more hp, but it is the tradition and history of Daytona that is a big attraction for many. THe high banks, the sensation of speed and g-forces are imposed on us there like no other place. The AMA course is more rider track than the "old" course but we do that in March. Personally? i would say there are other tracks that would be more "fair" to decide a 1 race winner take all, but few track locations have the ability to host the number of riders that Daytona can. Hotels or other lodging are plentiful, so are places to eat. What i find frustrating are of the number of bike week attendies that have NO idea there are motorcyles races going on at the speedway.
Going back to HP.. i finished pretty good in the unlimited classes with a 185hp gsxr1000, but did the SAME best lap time on my r6 superbike with about 8hp more than my bone stock r6..that is perplexing..
since i was spectating this year due to a mishap at jennings i noticed the crowd seemed smaller and the grids even smaller saw some good racing but if it wasn't 45min from the house not shure i would go either. i love riding on the track but never seem to do any good.after two laps it feels like a track day.since we race for points in march moving the race of champions is fine with me. i really like VIR the the surrounding area, the grounds the garges and hotels are more like a ski lodge and the track offers something for everbody.the other bitch is there's no celebration afterwards you drive all that way spend all that money and it's pick up your wood on the way out .I like our little moment in the sun .give the race to henery degow and he'll make a show of it.do you like the short course Greg?
Quote from: Been-Jammin on October 24, 2007, 02:29:51 PM...
Well, it was fun, but disheartening to sit with the throttle pinned and be unable to hold in the draft. When you've spent a deep 5 figures into a season and watch the championship walk away and get handed to someone with almost no points on a "faster bike", it's very disheartening...
and Fatboy122 who borrowed a bike just to win....
So what's the point of going? you know it's a HP track, and you won/felt like you could only win the race with a faster bike so you borrowed one.. that's a shallow victory isn't it?
I mean, if you know you can normally beat some dudes, and they beat you at this one track b/c of HP.. who gives a shit? YOU know you can beat them and are a better rider. Who are you racing for? I'd rather be like Been-Jammin and just take it like a man and let the other dude have the shallow victory. By far, it doesn't mean they are a better racer just b/c they have HP on you.
If this stupid championship in the end is all you're racing for, save your money, build your bike and ONLY race Daytona at the end of the year and get your little trophy.
A dude ended up ahead of me in SE points at the end of last year, but I beat him every race we were in together. I don't care he ended up ahead of me. Just means he raced more races than me.
I say quit your whining and do like Weggieman says... if you don't go, they will leave.
Quote from: weggieman on October 24, 2007, 06:36:03 PM
This has been a subject of discontent for a long time. Write the letters to CCS and vote with your wallet. If people don't show up at Daytona, CCS will leave. It's a very expensive track to rent and CCS needs lots of people to pay the bill. Like other tracks they have quit using......if you don't show, they will leave it.
Sounds like everyone had a good time! :err:
For those at ROC this year there's a better reason to move. Dealing with the "track ownership" issues is completely frustrating. Examples:
1. No VP rep is allowed... not even a mention on the PA. Announcer was forced to say "those of you running fuel in the blue cans... please take them with you" The majority of race fuel used by ccs racers is VP. Sunoco is junk, made for small block chevy's.
2. Dizzying pit transportation rules. Pitbikes allowed, but not with license plates. Bicycles not allowed??
3. Getting kicked out of garages for MOTO-what? Oh yeah, Daytona has a conflict of interest with Moto-ST. There are enough racers to pay for a weekend at Barber or Road Atlanta. What Moto-ST is really doing is racing (nearly) for free, on the backs of club racers. Don't forget how they f*cked up RA this summer.
I'd love to see a dissociation with Moto-ST and Daytona, we're not getting any significant contribution from the relationship. The common utterings go like this: "moto-ST makes it possible to race without raising entry fee's" But now you have to sign up for a trackday to get any practice (that's $150). If we boot Moto-ST and Daytona our fees may increase slightly, but maybe there will be some geniune practice time.
A different track every year makes sense.
Quote from: benprobst on October 24, 2007, 05:16:44 PM
moderatly, but not significantly. Its got one pretty long straight away, but it has a 40mph entry and a huge braking zone at the end so corner exit speed and braking ability outweigh anything you gain with a few extras ponies. Hell we ran taller gearing at Nashville than we did road atlanta.
If a straight begins with a 40 mph turn, that makes HP more important not less important. In a 40 mph turn the differences in speed between different riders at the apex will be small, but in a faster turn the differences in speed will be greater. Ask any accomplished racer and they will tell you that you can make up more time in faster turns than you can in slower ones.
Scotty727 made a really good point in the other thread, Daytona is the only track that doesnt hold regional races or track days, therefor it is the only place where everyone has the same ammount of track time during the year. Any other track would give certain racers an unfair advantage.
Also, HP is and always has been important in racing. At 190lbs on relatively stock bikes, I have never had hp/weight advantages over my competitors, yet I make do. Racing is an expensive sport, and the further you want to go, the more expensive it gets.
Quote from: d-wire on October 24, 2007, 09:57:40 AM
I have a few examples to prove my point.
#1 The announcer had to actually use the phrase...."Mavros and WOod are in an epic battle for 3 laps now"...... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
No offense charlie buddy, but I puked in my mouth. If Eric Wood can't pass charlie mavros on a Vespa....the track is a joke. All of us can hold a bike wide open. :thumb:
#2 I have 2 IDENTICALLY prepared R6's. One has 5.2 more hp. That equated to 3.8 seconds per lap. 3.8 seconds PER LAP!!!!!!! ::) THis is just to much of a temptation for most of the guys to stay within the rules in Supersport. Could I protest? Absolutely. I can't afford to protest all of the cheaters. My 'SUPERBIKE" was getting pulled by 1/2 off the "supersport" bikes. Dyno sheets available. Again, Before someone says "you suck out of the chicane"...I did a 54 on the faster bike.
My solution.....Pick a different track every year. VIR, Barber.......RIDERS TRACKS!!!! You're not going to be able to make everyone happy...so move it every year. Give the guys with smaller budgets a chance.
Do a poll. It would make the national championships mean more. Can I get an AMEN??
If you look at the national championship winners on the ccs homepage, many top riders are there: Eric Wood, Jeff Wood, Seth Starnes, Johnny Rock Page, Nicky Moore, Steve Crevier, Dan Bilansky, etc.
Also, you probably could have picked a better example than Charlie, unless you like badmouthing guys who are sitting at home with a badly broken arm.
Yep, every one of those guys is an awesome rider. I never said they weren't. And give me a freakin break about charlie. I joke with him to his face, I was kidding and he was in my trailer BSing a half hour after he hurt his arm. I say Id like to see the ROC at VIR and now Im responsible for world hunger...relax just a little :biggrin: LOL. Now, we can't razz guys that may have a broken wrist. ::)
...someone said basically if you guys don't like it don't go and then they will move it......UH, did ya notice the lack of entries???
Some of this was a little more light hearted than ya'll are taking it. A compromise would be to run the spring layout. THere is more of a balance there and more places to out ride someone. More CORNERS. But, according to the little poll the majority agrees so far. For the record, I would have to drive by daytona on the way to any of these other tracks.
I would love for it to be at VIR
I've voted with my wallet now since I started back racing in 2003. Still haven't been to Daytona. It cost too much to justify. higher entry fees, higher loddging costs, high travel costs, high horspower necessary. And it is even included in the Mid-Atlantic region for points in the spring. I guess CCS has a different map than I do.
Quote from: ecumike on October 24, 2007, 08:55:20 PM
and Fatboy122 who borrowed a bike just to win....
So what's the point of going? you know it's a HP track, and you won/felt like you could only win the race with a faster bike so you borrowed one.. that's a shallow victory isn't it?
I mean, if you know you can normally beat some dudes, and they beat you at this one track b/c of HP.. who gives a shit? YOU know you can beat them and are a better rider. Who are you racing for? I'd rather be like Been-Jammin and just take it like a man and let the other dude have the shallow victory. By far, it doesn't mean they are a better racer just b/c they have HP on you.
If this stupid championship in the end is all you're racing for, save your money, build your bike and ONLY race Daytona at the end of the year and get your little trophy.
A dude ended up ahead of me in SE points at the end of last year, but I beat him every race we were in together. I don't care he ended up ahead of me. Just means he raced more races than me.
I say quit your whining and do like Weggieman says... if you don't go, they will leave.
all i was saying is that it shouldnt take a HP type racetrack to decide a Natl Championship, thats all..i agree with Dwire, they could just run the March configuration and that would help alot, no complaints from me with that idea..as for being beaten in points by someone, the samething happened to me this year, dude beat me in the amatuer overall because he ran 9-10 races a weekend to my 4-6, im ok with that..maybe it was being a little selfish of boring a bike just to win at daytona but thats something ive wanted for along time..btw i didnt borrow a 600 when i already had one, i raced my 600 in the mw races, but i did borrow a 750 to race in the hw races, i do see i problem with evening up the odds, do you? Hope yall have a safe and enjoyable off season..
I enjoyed going to Daytona for the first time. I think it's a fun track and a great experience but I totally agree with Sean. Having "national champions" determined by a track that is obviously biased for those with more hp just seems pointless imo. I also think people should realize how unbiased he's being bc he does live so close to Daytona. Wasn't the Sept. CCS/ASRA round the FIRST time you've ever been to VIR Dwire? I don't know Sean and I've never met him but he brings up some good points... VIR or Barber seem like a good idea for a final round to me. Obviously you can't make everyone happy...again, I liked Daytona but I think something's wrong with the national championship process.
On another note, I couldn't agree with Greg more about the # of people in Daytona for Biketoberfest that had NO idea there were races going on and we talked about it Sat night...half of the ones I talked to were right outside the speedway during the 8 hr ST and had no clue.
Do I have the answers to fix these problems, NO...but I think we're getting some good ideas and hopefully people that make these decisions are listening.
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 24, 2007, 08:00:04 PM
since i was spectating this year due to a mishap at jennings i noticed the crowd seemed smaller and the grids even smaller saw some good racing but if it wasn't 45min from the house not shure i would go either. i love riding on the track but never seem to do any good.after two laps it feels like a track day.since we race for points in march moving the race of champions is fine with me. i really like VIR the the surrounding area, the grounds the garges and hotels are more like a ski lodge and the track offers something for everbody.the other bitch is there's no celebration afterwards you drive all that way spend all that money and it's pick up your wood on the way out .I like our little moment in the sun .give the race to henery degow and he'll make a show of it.do you like the short course Greg?
Hi Marc, hope your doing better. I like both honestly and since we do the short course in March im for hte long course in Oct. There is an awards banquet to crown the champs right after the sunday races as well. I would say the economy has ALOT to do with the # of entrys this year. Im in the real estate bus, and i spoke to many racers throughout the year that are directly or indirectly affected by the poor real estate market. Builders, realtors, investors, etc.
One thing to remember folks about the time of year this race falls on .. its FRIGGIN COLD if you go very far north..HIGH OF 47DEG F at Virginia right now!!! Ahhh, i would not be attending. Im spoiled by FL weather.
How about laguna seca! It's just as popular worldwide as daytona.
I really dont see what the problem is. CCS has been running daytona for how long???? Now all the sudden its a problem?? Having a lot of HP at any track makes a big difference. I ran the same motor last year (stock) and won at the ROC, heck I won the heavyweight superbike race on a 600. What I dont think you realize is that a low compression motor works better on the banking than high compression. Ask anyone who rode with me on the banking. I got killed on the infield comming out of the turns but ran em down on the banks with only 112hp. Heck look how well the bmw's did.
I would think switching tracks every year would be to hard for reserving the track. If you tell Daytona that your not coming back for a year, then they can let someone have that weekend and you may never get it back. I have been there and won as an amateur, but will never go back. The first year it was almost overmelingly cool, but the next time it was alot of wide open boredom with walls. The hotels are way out of control, I would think because biketoberfest? I just feel roadracing should be on a track made for roadracing. keep the march race there, so people have a chance to experience it, but I would participate in ROC again if it were at a warm weather roadracing track like Barber. Does anyone know if WERA guys complain about RA? The fastest guys will win at any track, but if they moved from Daytona then maybe CCS could save some money on track rental and make more? we could all save on hotels and expensive places to eat?
the banking is fun as hell.....good point about it being warm. Its not a big deal. Ryan ..you were flat flying. Melka was stupid fast in the rain. The fast guys won. SO, things are right in the universe. ..but I would prefer more of a riders track to decide a winner take all event.
Im off to go work out, swap a motor, and think about how Im going to keep up with the fast guys at homestead.
Quote from: Ryan125 on October 25, 2007, 10:12:39 AM
I really dont see what the problem is. CCS has been running daytona for how long???? Now all the sudden its a problem?? Having a lot of HP at any track makes a big difference. I ran the same motor last year (stock) and won at the ROC, heck I won the heavyweight superbike race on a 600. What I dont think you realize is that a low compression motor works better on the banking than high compression. Ask anyone who rode with me on the banking. I got killed on the infield comming out of the turns but ran em down on the banks with only 112hp. Heck look how well the bmw's did.
People have been complaining about it for many years. Its not going to change unless CCS starts losing money. The grids were very small this year. If that keeps up i'm sure they will pull out. I remember 60 rider grids before
For how much it cost to race there its not worth it. You could race 2-3 weekends at another track for what it cost you to do daytona. But you have to at least do it once if you race.
I can't stand it when people use the rational "It's been that was for ever, so why change it now." That just doesn't make sense.
I think a solution that everyone would accept is to just run the AMA config, like in the spring. Then you still have the banking where the bike is more important (other than drafting strategy) and you have more of an infield where rider skill is more important. Maybe switch the schedule and run the traditional config in the spring, and the ama config in the fall.
I just hope that CCS takes a good look into how they can improve things overall and make this one of the best race series in the country. Given the high quality of people involved, both participants and personnel, it is definitely possible.
P.S. Congratulations to all the Nat. Champions! Part of winning is doing what you have to do to get the job done, and you guys got the job done!
Quote from: Gbord on October 25, 2007, 01:08:42 PM
I think a solution that everyone would accept is to just run the AMA config, like in the spring. Then you still have the banking where the bike is more important (other than drafting strategy) and you have more of an infield where rider skill is more important. Maybe switch the schedule and run the traditional config in the spring, and the ama config in the fall.
I just hope that CCS takes a good look into how they can improve things overall and make this one of the best race series in the country. Given the high quality of people involved, both participants and personnel, it is definitely possible.
P.S. Congratulations to all the Nat. Champions! Part of winning is doing what you have to do to get the job done, and you guys got the job done!
+ 1
I really enjoyed the AMA layout, more like a race track than drag strip. Good times.
VIR.......FULL COURSE :biggrin:
I haven't been to Daytona, and the only reason I'd want to go is because of the "allure" of Daytona. I wouldn't go there for good racing. And I would seem to agree with the people here that awarding National Championships based on HP is a bit rough; much less on a non-riders track like Daytona is.
This is a rule that should be back.It used to be that in order to race at the ROC you must have at least raced 5 races in the same class in order to be in a race at ROC.Now anyone can come out of nowhere, never raced anywhere in any CCS races,win a CCS at ROC and there the champ.
Quote from: ahastings on October 24, 2007, 11:34:03 PM
I've voted with my wallet now since I started back racing in 2003. Still haven't been to Daytona. It cost too much to justify. higher entry fees, higher loddging costs, high travel costs, high horspower necessary. And it is even included in the Mid-Atlantic region for points in the spring. I guess CCS has a different map than I do.
Yeah Arnie, I was curious about that also. You and I ought to pitch in, buy a third copy of our map and donate it.
Quote from: apriliaman on October 27, 2007, 01:43:17 AM
This is a rule that should be back.It used to be that in order to race at the ROC you must have at least raced 5 races in the same class in order to be in a race at ROC.Now anyone can come out of nowhere, never raced anywhere in any CCS races,win a CCS at ROC and there the champ.
I agree 100%
Quote from: apriliaman on October 27, 2007, 01:43:17 AM
This is a rule that should be back.It used to be that in order to race at the ROC you must have at least raced 5 races in the same class in order to be in a race at ROC.Now anyone can come out of nowhere, never raced anywhere in any CCS races,win a CCS at ROC and there the champ.
When was that a rule? I thought I remembered something like that but I couldn't find it in the rulebooks back to 2002. It would be a good one to add though. Maybe it would result in more entries because people felt it was more fair.
Quote from: SVbadguy on October 27, 2007, 06:52:09 PM
When was that a rule? I thought I remembered something like that but I couldn't find it in the rulebooks back to 2002. It would be a good one to add though. Maybe it would result in more entries because people felt it was more fair.
I was so in 2005
Quote from: SVbadguy on October 25, 2007, 05:33:22 PM
VIR.......FULL COURSE :biggrin:
I got to run that course this year in Moto-St so +1 except for that damn blind oak tree turn.
Quote from: Ryan125 on October 25, 2007, 10:12:39 AM
I really dont see what the problem is. CCS has been running daytona for how long???? Now all the sudden its a problem?? Having a lot of HP at any track makes a big difference. I ran the same motor last year (stock) and won at the ROC, heck I won the heavyweight superbike race on a 600. What I dont think you realize is that a low compression motor works better on the banking than high compression. Ask anyone who rode with me on the banking. I got killed on the infield comming out of the turns but ran em down on the banks with only 112hp. Heck look how well the bmw's did.
Last year at Daytona ROC I won 5 races with my supersport legal Ducati. I was down HP against bikes in some of my classes but was able to make it up in the infield and drafting. It does not matter what track CCS designates to run the ROC all the top guys will be finishing at the top just like Daytona.
Quote from: Been-Jammin on October 24, 2007, 02:29:51 PM
HP was definitely the determining factor in my lightweight races. The same guy I was 4 seconds a lap faster than in the Team Challenge on the same super sport bike, later pulled me by 1.5 seconds a lap in the race on our respective bikes. I ran my ass off and reeled him in on the infield every lap, but he simply walked away on the banking, he had more HP. Very similar bikes, 1000ds vs Bimota DB5. He won on pure horsepower. He even beat our SE LW Champion on pure HP.
On the first lap of the race, I literally waved at him as I passed him coming out of International Bus Stop, he waved back on the banking... Nothing I could do. I ran a 2.08 on a SuperSport. He ran a high 2.06. He and I are very equal riders on other tracks like JGP and RA. I'm always a second a lap faster than him. It was all bike at Daytona.
Guess I'll think of Daytona more like a drag race. Hey, maybe we can get some of those guys on the 'Busas to give exhibition runs and we can watch. Better yet, let's save the tires and just do the Dyno drag race and be done with it online. We can just submit our HP/Torque readings for each class. Then we can scratch the travel expenses and the crazy Daytona bike week jazz.
Well, it was fun, but disheartening to sit with the throttle pinned and be unable to hold in the draft. When you've spent a deep 5 figures into a season and watch the championship walk away and get handed to someone with almost no points on a "faster bike", it's very disheartening...
I'm done bitching... the GNF was way better competition and way more fun and they had more food and seats at the banquet too, lesson learned about CCS Daytona, I know what I'm doing next year.
Flame on...
How many times have you raced against this guy on the Bimota? Out of the total races how many times have you won (once)? You make it sound like your bike is not built and you beat this guy every where you race and he comes to Daytona and turns the throttle and gets a National Championship. He beats you at other tracks and he beat you at Daytona why did you think it would be different?
Quote from: garrettrick on October 24, 2007, 02:07:03 PM
daytona sucks. i will not attend the ROC next year if its at daytona. you can quote me on that. you will however find me @ RD ATL the week prior to the ROC at another Natl Championship weekend...CCS has access to some of the best tracks in the country to host the national championship and daytona is chosen?....Id rather drive 12 hours to VIR for a ROC than 4 hrs to daytona again...my money is better spent elsewhere.
G-Rod, I bet you will be there next year and I bet D-Wire will win one next year! Bet...
I took my 2nd & 3rd place finishes with a healthy smile & had a lot of fun trying not to blow up my little air cooled Duc...
Daytona is a HP track. HP wins races there and can be the determining factor between relatively equal riders.
Still seems unfair to have a "Winner take all" race on a HP based track configuration.
Or... maybe it's just an opportunity to build a better bike...
Quote from: CounterSteerer on October 28, 2007, 11:07:30 PM
Last year at Daytona ROC I won 5 races with my supersport legal Ducati. I was down HP against bikes in some of my classes but was able to make it up in the infield and drafting. It does not matter what track CCS designates to run the ROC all the top guys will be finishing at the top just like Daytona.
Of course they will finish at the top jason but its not as competitive. I beat mills and bryan alot my AM year but when ROC's rolled around my SS spec bike was no match for their SB's 20hp down. You weren't down very much HP to them if you could draft with them.
Congrats again on the win.
we would mostly agree that the "old" course at Daytona does give bikes with more hp a bit of an advantage. So what if there is ONE race a year where a little bit of HP makes up for some things. It has to be a national as the place is WAY to expensive to run as a regional race, and it is better than going to the same tracks we run all year long. CCS even changes it up from the March race by not running the repaved infield course that everyone thought was Micky-mouse.. (so is the new internaional horseshoe, f-in joke for real). Motorcycling is a sport where the machine DOES have to be part of the equation, you can build em up..but they better last cause Daytona will be the ultimate "dyno". If you have a little gremlin lurking it will be found out at this track. As Edmonds pointed out earlier, the best riders did win, and in some races where 750's were pitted against 600's maybe some were further up front than expected.
Is it the best place to decide n-tl titles? maybe, maybe not. but i for one wont be spending money if the weather forcast for the potential facility is in the 50's or below! 8)
Quote from: Been-Jammin on October 29, 2007, 09:49:01 AM
I said beat, not win, my lap times are ALWAYS faster, his ability to motor through traffic is much better.
You beat him but you dont win? :thumb:
Quote from: ScubaSteve on October 29, 2007, 10:05:06 AM
Of course they will finish at the top jason but its not as competitive. I beat mills and bryan alot my AM year but when ROC's rolled around my SS spec bike was no match for their SB's 20hp down. You weren't down very much HP to them if you could draft with them.
Congrats again on the win.
Steve it was good to see you at Daytona sorry I couldn't hang out longer my race was on first call when we were talking. I am not going to tell all my secrets about Daytona but staying in the draft helps that and last year my Super Sport Duc made 93HP thanks Moto Corse Performance. I may have been out horsed powered last year but I doubt by 20 HP. I can just imagine if you and Mills were still racing how much trash talking there would be. :biggrin:
Quote from: CounterSteerer on October 28, 2007, 11:07:30 PM
Last year at Daytona ROC I won 5 races with my supersport legal Ducati. I was down HP against bikes in some of my classes but was able to make it up in the infield and drafting. It does not matter what track CCS designates to run the ROC all the top guys will be finishing at the top just like Daytona.
Very true.
The ROC has some interesting problems.
First, weather. Road Atlanta can be bad. So can Barber, etc.
Grid sizes are a problem too. Barber is just too tiny. It turns into a mess when there are 1400 entries there. Good luck. Meanwhile, Daytona has fielded about 2000 entries the past.
I don't necessarily think that Daytona is the answer, but there are a lot of reasons why other places aren't an answer. But your opinions will differ.
Ya know, after cooling off and thinking about this quite a bit... Who cares? Seriously. It's a racetrack and a bad ass high MPH banked one at that. Run it!!
Forgive me for my thoughtless lip in my earlier posts, I really don't know why I was bitching so much, I had a freakin blast! Despite the rain and the ever famous Daytona staff.
I was actually able to ride the banking (this was my 2nd event at Daytona) comfortably and concentrate on tucked in body position and climb above the white line for the first time! It was such a rush of accomplishment just to be able to get above that white line under control without freaking out over a wall a few feet away at those speeds.
Running the two bankings was a great experience, especially with running the TC for the first time. That's a huge amount of WOT riding. Where else in the world can I get that without worrying about grandma's and jail. And learning to brake deep into that chicane was f'n awesome. I thought for sure that I'd had the rear wheel off of the ground!
Sorry for being so nit picky, whiny and unappreciative in my earlier posts and adding to this mess of a topic. Guess I needed to get my head out of my ass and remember why I'm here. I love this race track shiat no matter who wins!
Quote from: CounterSteerer on October 30, 2007, 03:40:53 PM
Steve it was good to see you at Daytona sorry I couldn’t hang out longer my race was on first call when we were talking. I am not going to tell all my secrets about Daytona but staying in the draft helps that and last year my Super Sport Duc made 93HP thanks Moto Corse Performance. I may have been out horsed powered last year but I doubt by 20 HP. I can just imagine if you and Mills were still racing how much trash talking there would be. :biggrin:
Oh ya you missed those days...lol We still talk trash esp when i'm in the car with him...I'll see you again prob homestead in feb
Quote from: Been-Jammin on October 30, 2007, 10:17:12 PM
Ya know, after cooling off and thinking about this quite a bit... Who cares? Seriously. It's a racetrack and a bad ass high MPH banked one at that. Run it!!
Forgive me for my thoughtless lip in my earlier posts, I really don't know why I was bitching so much, I had a freakin blast! Despite the rain and the ever famous Daytona staff.
I was actually able to ride the banking (this was my 2nd event at Daytona) comfortably and concentrate on tucked in body position and climb above the white line for the first time! It was such a rush of accomplishment just to be able to get above that white line under control without freaking out over a wall a few feet away at those speeds.
Running the two bankings was a great experience, especially with running the TC for the first time. That's a huge amount of WOT riding. Where else in the world can I get that without worrying about grandma's and jail. And learning to brake deep into that chicane was f'n awesome. I thought for sure that I'd had the rear wheel off of the ground!
Sorry for being so nit picky, whiny and unappreciative in my earlier posts and adding to this mess of a topic. Guess I needed to get my head out of my ass and remember why I'm here. I love this race track shiat no matter who wins!
Whats the saying? The B.S. stops when the green flag drops. :biggrin:
Why is there a picture of Chris in your avatar?
Quote from: CounterSteerer on October 31, 2007, 09:18:33 PM
Whats the saying? The B.S. stops when the green flag drops. :biggrin:
That's about how it works...
Quote from: CounterSteerer on October 31, 2007, 09:18:33 PM
Why is there a picture of Chris in your avatar?
That's me, on Chris' bike. Team Challenge.
I have one of Kevin on that bike too.
How about coming west for the ROC......Say, California Speed Way!! :thumb:
Quote from: Been-Jammin on October 29, 2007, 09:49:01 AM
I took my 2nd & 3rd place finishes with a healthy smile & had a lot of fun trying not to blow up my little air cooled Duc...
Daytona is a HP track. HP wins races there and can be the determining factor between relatively equal riders.
Still seems unfair to have a "Winner take all" race on a HP based track configuration.
Or... maybe it's just an opportunity to build a better bike...
Maybe I missed something. But what your not telling everyone aside from that bimota you have one of the fastest lw bikes in the country. I watched you walk away from me and Ted (two of the top 5 fastest am lw guys in the country on two very fast bikes) like we were standing still down the back straight at Road Atlanta. We could barely keep up in the draft. I dont think you should be complaining to much about fast bikes. You had a good finish to the year on a motorcycle that put you in the top 5 nationaly with 2 different orgs, just dont complain too much when your super fast (and illegal in WERA) bike won races for you just like that Bimota.
Quote from: benprobst on November 04, 2007, 01:49:34 PM
Maybe I missed something. But what your not telling everyone aside from that bimota you have one of the fastest lw bikes in the country. I watched you walk away from me and Ted (two of the top 5 fastest am lw guys in the country on two very fast bikes) like we were standing still down the back straight at Road Atlanta. We could barely keep up in the draft. I dont think you should be complaining to much about fast bikes. You had a good finish to the year on a motorcycle that put you in the top 5 nationaly with 2 different orgs, just dont complain too much when your super fast (and illegal in WERA) bike won races for you just like that Bimota.
Lol... yeah... I remember that.
It was the ONLY time this year I passed Ted on the track. =)
Read, 5 posts up, ignore the rest...
Quote from: Been-Jammin on November 05, 2007, 12:08:44 PM
Lol... yeah... I remember that.
It was the ONLY time this year I passed Ted on the track. =)
Read, 5 posts up, ignore the rest...
ha, yeah im just busting your balls. Like I said you really found some speed at the end of the year and congrats on your wins. Im sure ill see you aroud next year. Ill prob be running a mixed up season with different orgs. and regions, but Ill def. be back down south a fair bit. See ya next year.
Thats why I didnt bother going down there on my Duc 800. Racing those Buells and BMW's and 1000SS in Thunderbike and LWSBK sucks