Moto GP/Formula 1

Started by Baltobuell, March 10, 2005, 04:56:43 PM

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Super Dave

QuoteContact patch area does a lot less for the cars than downforce.


That ain't mechanical grip (contact patch), folks.

Put motorcycle tires on a car and see what happens.
Super Dave

tshort

QuotePut motorcycle tires on a car and see what happens.


Uh - won't turn?  :-/
Fast off the line (assuming you widened the swing arm and forks)?  ;D
Look cool?  :)
Tom
ThinkFast Racing
AFM #280 EX
ex-CCS #128

Old808

QuotePut motorcycle tires on a car and see what happens.
With downforce, they'll still corner faster than bikes.  It's just physics.

Super Dave

QuoteWith downforce, they'll still corner faster than bikes.  It's just physics.


Right and with down force and less contact patch...

They will go slower.

It's just physics.
Super Dave

K3 Chris Onwiler

It's no secret that Ferrari wants Rossi in a MAJOR way.  That would be pretty cool.  I'd love to see the Doctor perform anal relaxation surgery on all those tight-@$$ed egomanipricks in F1.  Schumacher especially....
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
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Old808

QuoteRight and with down force and less contact patch...

They will go slower.

It's just physics.
Nice spin.  :) But I believe the question was why F1 cars are so much faster than bikes.  You argued that it is the contact patch area that gives them the advantage.  No you're changing to compare cars with fat tire to cars with little tires.

OK, why is it a Viper GTR or someting equivalent doesn't beat a GP bike so badly around corners?  After all, the tires are huge.

And while you're explaining this, how much contact area is required to stick a car to the ceiling of a wind tunnel?  I believe an F1 car (with motorcycle tires) can achieve that with much less than 150 mph of relative wind (I need to check the exact number).

Old808

Here, I did a 10-second Google search that should end this.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurecar/article/0,20967,681879-2,00.html

You're welcome.  :)

Mongo

I have a vehicle with 400 HP, the handling of a 2004 Z06 and it will not do  lap quicker than an SS spec GSXR1k with fast drivers of each.  It's not contact patch.  Remember the test Schwantz did with the Vette vs the GSXR?  Same deal.  

Sean P. Clarke
WERA Motorcycle Roadracing
www.wera.com


Steviebee

vett's (street cars Z06, Vipers) dont have the downforce  that an F1 car has.  
that vette barley could pull 1 g.  cornering.  F1 cars can pull well past 3 g's  and even higher in some spots.

Thats 3X the force on the contact patch !!

The bikes have a hugh power/weight advantage over a street car.  Not so over an F1 car,  but since the F1 car has the aero advantage (A hole lot of downforce and still a low amount of drag)  it wins out.

Super Dave

Quotevett's (street cars Z06, Vipers) dont have the downforce  that an F1 car has.  
that vette barley could pull 1 g.  cornering.  F1 cars can pull well past 3 g's  and even higher in some spots.

Thats 3X the force on the contact patch !!

The bikes have a hugh power/weight advantage over a street car.  Not so over an F1 car,  but since the F1 car has the aero advantage (A hole lot of downforce and still a low amount of drag)  it wins out.

Physics again...

400HP Vette...  Add the driver and the wieght...yeah, it isn't going to keep up with the GSXR1000, but how far off is it because of the extra contact patch...
Super Dave

tzracer

Compare the lap times of a car with and without its wings.

The downforce of a formula car is huge. I was at a shop a couple weeks ago. There was a formula atlantic car in the shop. The shop owner commented that the car created downforce equal to the weight of the car (so the total normal force would be twice the cars weight) at about 37 miles per hour.

The reason a formula car is faster is because it can brake harder and it can corner much faster. It can corner faster because it has more grip. The increased grip comes from more tire area on the ground and from downforce. But which is more important?

At the first GP at Indianapolis, the Ferraris were 20 mph slower than the Arrows (200 vs 220). Why? Because the Ferraris were running more downforce (more downforce, more drag - F1 cars have so much drag at 200 mph that lifting off the gas will result in something like 4g's of negative acceleration - before using the brakes). The Ferraris were 4 seconds per lap faster. The gain in lap time was due to the added downforce in the slower corners.

The conclusion, downforce is the largest contributing factor to formula cars having higher cornering speeds (when they want to slow formula cars - they try to take away downforce, not reduce contact patch - how much money do teams spend in the search of more downforce/ better aerodynamics? How many F1 teams have their own wind tunnels?).
Brian McLaughlin
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2 strokes smoke, 4 strokes choke

Old808

To those who argue contact patch area yields more benefits than downforce in a F1 car:

You are surrounded.  Resistance is futile.  Come out with your hands up and your ego will be spared.  ;D