More BS

[kl3640]

"Slippery-slope"- Give me a break!  Sounds like chicken-little.  Seems we've become a "minority" that needs "saving and protecting"... pretty sad isn't it! The AMA has become a self-serving organization.  Just like every large PAC, their real objective is to remain politically relevant and well funded... and if they get a chance to help somebody, well they might just do that too!

If you want to dump your money into lobbiest group, feel free...I just like to ride, I don't need a legal team. 

Fine, you find a better way to protect your riding rights and I'll listen.  Until then, whatever political grievances you may have with the AMA, you can't deny that they strongly advocate motorcyclists' rights, and the issue that started this thread is a motorcyclists's rights issue, not a thread on the merits or problems with the AMA.

You can talk all you want about not needing any lawyers when someone else's lawyers legislate away your rights to purchase, own, and ride sportbikes.  Your tune will then change.

Or you can sit around while the rest of us protect your rights and just be the beneficiary, instead being the vocal malcontent.  You call this exercise "chicken little," but you are the one who believes in being passive until the time for action has passed and you have no recourse.  What's the name for that?  Something like death through inaction?

Freedom is earned, not given.

[Mongo]

AMA is a PAC.  So?  They also still sanction a LOT of amateur MX racing.  I don't do a lot of street riding so I'm not sure what they do as far as arranging rides or gatherings but the PAC part of things absolutely affects me on the street directly.

[123user]

Well, as long as your willing to admit that the AMA is pretty much just a PAC, and that they use your and my money to influence legislators, and you're happy with that, then we just disagree over the ethics of politics.

But, maybe these are real issues in high density populations, with large concentrations of inconsiderate, idiots that require legislation to control.  Here in Missouri (or missoura if your a real hick) it ain't an issue.  Our bikes don't have to have mufflers, or turn signals, or mirrors, or emissions, or even brakes on both wheels... Heck, don't even need a brake light unless originally equipt.  But we also don't have lots of sensational media attention, or lots of fools standing on top of their tanks. 

I have a full yosh system on my TL... and its really loud if I'm cranking on the throttle.  But, when I'm driving through neighborhoods, I don't.  And as far as "loud pipes save lives"... well that's just crap,  I've had just as many near-hits on my loud TL as on my quiet Hawk.  After 16 years of commuting in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic, dodging dump trucks, dreamers, cell-phoners, drunks, texters, eaters, and readers, I can reasonably affirm that the relative noise of your bike has little effect on drivers... but lots of effect on neighbors.

Now when the AMA talks about defending actual rights, like with health insurance, I applaud them.  But you have no "right" to ride around with a screaming exhaust.  For them to pat themselves on the back for this... well its just a waste of our money.

Loud mufflers are about machisimo and showing off... when the AMA defends it, they do the whole motorcycle culture a disservice.  Here's the perspective to keep in mind: "we-racers" are some of the best informed and responsible type of rider... but there's a lot of real problems with lots riders out there.  From reckless riding, to alcohol and riding, to inappropriate riding apparel.  By putting "rights" ahead of education... the AMA is really just digging the hole from the other side.

[tzracer]

Loud mufflers are about machisimo and showing off... when the AMA defends it, they do the whole motorcycle culture a disservice.  Here's the perspective to keep in mind: "we-racers" are some of the best informed and responsible type of rider... but there's a lot of real problems with lots riders out there.  From reckless riding, to alcohol and riding, to inappropriate riding apparel.  By putting "rights" ahead of education... the AMA is really just digging the hole from the other side.

The AMA is not defending loud pipes. They are objecting to motorcycles as being singled out to have exhaust with an EPA label.

[123user]

Brian,

Do you know of a single aftermarket brand of exhaust that is not louder than an oem, epa approved silencer.  Yes its a technicallity, but in reality (as I said before) its already illegal to remove emission effecting part nationally.  Redundant, and a waste of NYC politicians time... yes!  Its also a waste of the AMA's time and money.  You can't fight every battle... whether you have the money or not...its just not good politics.

I know that you and I both live in a region of the country that I would consider a paradise as compared to NYC.  Low crime, clean(er) air, plentiful water, and generally good common sense-type people.  To us this is ridiculous-  but there are a lot of very eccentric people in NYC, and its dirty, and noisy, and polluted.  Maybe New Yorkers are sick of kid's screaming through town, or wanna-be's on choking Hardley's.  Is there a single NYC native responding to this thread? 

Local politics is just that... local.  Its supposed to be the closest thing to "will-o-the-people".  When outsiders like you, or me, or the AMA stick their nose in it, we are subverting the will of the locals there.

On national issue, like health insurance, the AMA does a lot of good.  And I'm not condemning everything they do... because they do some pretty good stuff, but, I'm a member too- I feel I also have a right to criticize their over-involvement in politics.  Its obvious that the AMA has genuine internal ethical and structural issues... they should be concentrating in cleaning up their own problems before telling NYC what to do.  But that doesn't rally the troops, or increase membership, or make for good horn-tooting.  In the end, its a PR issue.

[vnvbandit]

What next, a small town in Massachusettes will ban all motorcycles from entering their town park on a state road!
But wait! That did happen! It took 15 years of fighting to get the town ordiance revoked! Unfortunatly, we all pay the price when liberties are lost!



Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.

Benjamin Franklin

[kl3640]

The AMA is not defending loud pipes. They are objecting to motorcycles as being singled out to have exhaust with an EPA label.

+1  Nobody is disagreeing that loud pipes can be annoying (though some people make anecdotal arguments that they "save lives"); this issue is that legislators are not addressing the actual issues: noise and pollution.  If they wish to reduce noise levels, then issue noise ordinances for the affected municipalities.  If someone living in such an area really wants a loud aftermarket pipe, then they'll have to make the choice between having that and being able to ride about their town.  Ditto emissions; if they want aftermarket exhausts to comply with EPA standards, then let them legislate that at the Federal level, or at lower levels of government, as California has done for years.

But to single out motorcycles is not fair, as is the banning of such aftermarket accessories wholesale for only a single class of vehicle, when someone with a car can go out and do the same exact thing, making more noise and pollution in the process - and that is what the AMA is defending.

Well, as long as your willing to admit that the AMA is pretty much just a PAC, and that they use your and my money to influence legislators, and you're happy with that, then we just disagree over the ethics of politics.

That's what I started with, about three posts ago in this thread; I believe that I called them a PAC before anyone else did in this thread, so I never stated otherwise.  As I wrote, if you have an issue with special interests, that is your concern, and if you find the politics of the business to be distasteful, then so be it; but to claim that this is not an issue of motorcyclists rights just doesn't make sense.

[123user]

I'm not familar with the Massachusette's case, but from the description, motorcyclist's constitutional right to association and assembly were being abused... Good fight for the AMA!

No one, No where has any constitutional right to operate any motor vehicle on any public road... case closed.  There is no expectation that laws be uniform between bikes and cars because there is no constitutional right either expressed or implied.  Your only legal expectation is that the law be applied equally to PEOPLE... can't discriminate on law enforcement on the basis of race, gender, age, gayness, etc.

Its just a pissing match, and a crappy battle for the AMA.  After the litigation between AHRMA and Team Obsolete, it should be obvious to the motocycling community that engaging in no-win, pissing matches is a waste of time and money.

[kl3640]

I'm not familar with the Massachusette's case, but from the description, motorcyclist's constitutional right to association and assembly were being abused... Good fight for the AMA!

No one, No where has any constitutional right to operate any motor vehicle on any public road... case closed.  There is no expectation that laws be uniform between bikes and cars because there is no constitutional right either expressed or implied.  Your only legal expectation is that the law be applied equally to PEOPLE... can't discriminate on law enforcement on the basis of race, gender, age, gayness, etc.

Its just a pissing match, and a crappy battle for the AMA.  After the litigation between AHRMA and Team Obsolete, it should be obvious to the motocycling community that engaging in no-win, pissing matches is a waste of time and money.

The AMA's argument isn't based around discrimination against motorcycles vs. other motor vehicles.  It's based around municipal and state governments' attempts to contravene federal laws that specifically apply to motorcycles.  If such laws didn't exist at the federal level, then such arguments as the non-existence of explicit rights for one class of motor vehicles would make perfect sense; but when federal laws that accord certain rights to motorcycles are already on the books, then what the AMA does is challenge municipalities and states that are effectively seeking to break such laws.

[Mongo]

That argument currently works better but they'd switch to discrimination if need be.