07 Rules New Topics being discussed per the ROC mailer

[StuartV666]

this is an excellent point. 1000s are NOT going to hurt F40, but do exactly the opposite. WERA has already prove it!

Is this why Mongo has not responded to my questions about that? It would make sense that he would not want to encourage CCS to do anything that would increase participation or grid sizes in CCS.

[SV88]

Hum.  I got into F40 LW because I felt that it was probably the safest way for me to start.  The main problem with letting 1k's into  it will be more lapped riders and more opportunities for wrecks.  In sailboat racing, the fastest boats start latter.  Why not start the 1k's half a lap after the LW bikes to minimize the opportunity to lap?  The LW 40 AM class is probably the smallest - 6 riders @ BHF - we need to do something to boost the participation.

Regarding purse money for the GT races - it a fairly simple situation - back riders like me who have no real chance of winning will find the race too expensive.  The purses only benefit the 1-3 riders who finish upfront most of the time (or the guys that delude themselves) at the expense (frankly) of the slow guys like me.

I'm a little disapointed to hear (as a new racer) that the guys who finish upfront even in LW are shelling out big bucks for tires.  It comes down to who has the biggest wallet or capacity for dept vs outright skill.

[Team_Serpent]

The main problem with letting 1k's into  it will be more lapped riders and more opportunities for wrecks.  In sailboat racing, the fastest boats start latter.  Why not start the 1k's half a lap after the LW bikes to minimize the opportunity to lap? 

The differance between lap times of a well riden 750 and a 1000 is probably no more than a second or so at most tracks so the 1000's will probably not be lapping many more riders than the current 750's running in F40.

If you start the 1000's or 750's (whichever is allowed next year) a half lap behind the LW bikes then they will be coming around you twice.  Once during the first couple of laps and then again toward the end of the race.  Right now they just come by once - ussually around lap 4 or 5.   

[jryer]

The numbers prove it, don't run Heavyweight Superbike as a separate class.
It's wasted time and space.

And here's the solution that will work great.
This reduces 600s from 11 races to 9 (still plenty)
and don't complain because the 600s still have
middleweight superbike

1. Do not allow 600s to race in heavyweight superbike
2. Do not allow 600s to race in unlimited superbike
3. Put heavyweight superbike with unlimited superbike

(600s make up 64% of heavyweight superbike)

Set 1st wave as unlimited superbike and 2nd wave as heavyweight superbike.
This way the grid is filled with true big bikes and
the number of bikes on the grid are the same as they are now. With the waves
I don't see too many unlimiteds catching heavyweights in 6 laps.

Size (cc)	Raced	%
100	3	1
125	1	0.5
600	133	64
636	3	1
650	3	1
748	1	0.5
749	4	2
750	37	18
853	1	0.5
916	1	0.5
954	1	0.5
996	7	3
999	13	6
1000	1	0.5

CCS Heavyweight Superbike statistics. Florida & SW combined, 2006 season through August

[jryer]

Correction : "Don't run Heavyweight Superbike as a separate RACE"

[Team_Serpent]

If you exclude 600's from heavyweight superbike (especially if your example is correct at 64% of entries) or any other heavyweight/unlimited class it would reduce the total number of entries for the weekend - I don't think CCS wants to reduce income, especially with the rising costs of track rental and insurance.

If the objective is to reduce the number of classes and replace it with more practice (or something along that line) then you'll probably need a sulution that includes retaining the lost income of a deleted/restricted class.

Charging for practice comes to mind......but then again - I just forgot I said that   

[jryer]

If you exclude 600's from heavyweight superbike (especially if your example is correct at 64% of entries) or any other heavyweight/unlimited class it would reduce the total number of entries for the weekend - I don't think CCS wants to reduce income, especially with the rising costs of track rental and insurance.

If the objective is to reduce the number of classes and replace it with more practice (or something along that line) then you'll probably need a sulution that includes retaining the lost income of a deleted/restricted class.

Charging for practice comes to mind......but then again - I just forgot I said that  

Sorry mate, but the numbers say otherwise.

I don't know CCS's financial standings nor will I speculate.
What I do know is the preliminary numbers show
600s are not making full use of other classes available to them.
So why allow 600s to run in nearly every class
created when they aren't making full use of other classes?

So what's going to happen when 600s race in 9 instead of 11 classes?
They will better fill the other classes. It doesn't reduce revenue
and it will not reduce the number entries for the weekend either.

But it will reduce the rush to squeeze in a ridiculous amount
of classes before sunset and finally better fill half empty classes that
I see every month. Heavyweight Supersport is an excellent candidate for
showing a class poorly utilized and prime for more 600s participation.
Talk is cheap but numbers don't lie.

Average # of 600s on grid in Amateur Heavyweight Supersport is 8.
Average # of 600s on grid in Expert Heavyweight Supersport is 6.

You got only 6 guys lapping together in the 1st wave and it ain't
much better in the 2nd wave with 8. The overall average for 600s
in this class is (yep you guessed it) 7.

Let's take the revenue from 600s out of heavyweight and unlimited superbike
and put it in classes meant for them (like Heavyweight Supersport). Some
guys skip Heavyweight Supersport and race in heavyweight or unlimited superbike. Then surprise surpise we have too many classes. It's because
we are under-utilizing the existing classes. The words heavyweight and
unlimited are obviously not for 600s.

(Data taken from the 1st four races of the florida season)

[Team_Serpent]

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive, just trying to add perspective to the discussion.  I race a 600 and sometimes do race in Heavyweight Supersport.  Sometimes the schedule puts it back to back with another class I like to run - so depending on points, contingency, how many set of tires I've gone through, ect. I may decide to skip that class on any given weekend.  Maybe the schedule is why more of the 600's in your region are running other classes their bike allows them to run.  I don't know your region as well as you nor do I know how a rule change would affect one region vs. another.  Just trying to add food for thought on the topic.

If you take a typical weekend schedule from your region and make the changes you're proposing will people have to run more back to back races?  That might discourage some and reduce the total number of event entries.

The reason I made the comments around income is because it's the first thing that came to mind when considering eliminating/restricting classes.  You have some good points and I've taken them into consideration during my thought process on this topic - keep it coming 

[Team_Serpent]

I just looked at the first three or four Florida regoinal schedules.  No wonder your looking for change - that's not a weekend of racing that's a Sunday of racing!  Personally I really don't like that type of schedule - give me some races on Saturday and spread it out a bit.  That Sunday schedule you have down there is to much to fit into one day IMHO.

[CCS]

WERA's Senior Superbike averages 7 Experts and 7 Amateurs (Novice or whatever) (for 37 Sportsman events)
CCS F40 LW is 9 Experts and 6 Amateurs (for 50 events)
CCS F40 is 11 Experts and 9 Amateurs (for 50 events) 60% of entries are 600's

We eliminated 6 classes 2 or 3 years ago, lengthened the races by 2 laps and the riders voted at the first two events to shorten the races back to 8 laps....can't win.....

Two questions for you (especially you Super Dave)
1. Are you willing to spend $150 per class to race if we eliminate SuperBike or GP?
2. Are you willing to promise me you'll enter both classes that are left and that all the other riders will?

We won't start on the purses for every class until later...that will be another eye opener.

We, as CCS, must make enough to break even just to stay in business. At this level, this is a rider's hobby, not his lively-hood and there can be no reasonable expectation that the purse we pay and the "normal" contingency money will cover your expenses. What you can be assured of is that we will bring enough staff, the trophies, the insurance and all the other items to the track and make sure the bills are paid so we can continue to participate in this great sport. So before you start advocating we eliminate classes, think where the lost income will have to come from to continue or we won't be around for long. Believe me, we want to continue to go forward and to make as many of you happy as we can, but sometimes we have to balance the wishes of one group with another and in the case of a tie, the largest numbers of entries will win. (I don't want to have to get a real job!)

Back to the real question at hand, how many 40+ will have 1000's and how many 600cc riders will drop out if 1000's come into F40? are there 6 more 40+ riders in every region that own 1000's who will take the place of the 600's? If I could just find that crystal ball.....

[jryer]

Back to the real question at hand, how many 40+ will have 1000's and how many 600cc riders will drop out if 1000's come into F40? are there 6 more 40+ riders in every region that own 1000's who will take the place of the 600's? If I could just find that crystal ball.....

Kevin, the truth is, no one can honestly know if we'll get 6 more 40+ riders on 1000s in every region. As you know we're trying to plan now for 2007, engine mods alone require advanced time and money. I believe there's enough  consensus that 1000 classes are desired. So if we have to keep what we got now, that's fine. We just don't want the few existing 1000 classes eliminated because then we're stuck with a 600 only club.

[Garywc]

why not just have a 1000 cc wave and a 600 cc wave for the f 40?