AMATEUR UPGRADES

[Super Dave]

I had a guy come to my school and we got him licensed as an expert first weekend too.  It was just the right thing to do for him.

As for expert vs amateur...

Amateur should just be a momentary stopping ground to learn how things work then off you go.  Too much emphasis on amateur racing.  It's nice and all, but the status of amatuer really applies to only a few.  

I don't know how to make it better, but a guy that races for three to five events every year for three to five years is no amateur.  You know how the game works, you know things that a guy that is first putting his tires on the track, a true amateur.

Maybe there should be amateur, expert, and pro classes at CCS events.  Limit the Pro events to a smaller number of events with bigger purses.  Amateurs would have to fit into a tighter, narrower classification.  Experts would compromise a good number of fast amatuers and not as fast experts.  These are the riders that are "having fun" or trying to become pro.

There has been some complaints about how LRRS is different with amateur, junior, and expert rankings.  Well, I asked about it years ago in the interest of safety.  Got knocked down for good reason.  It didn't make sense.  But in ways it did in my mind, because there were so many multi-year amateurs that did well and seemed to buck the system from becoming and expert, where they clearly belonged.

Anyone have thoughts on this idea?  I bagged on someone on another post because I get so sick and tired of people complaining about having to be an expert when they are a junior in LRRS.  I am still tired of it.  On one side, I am told that they race for fun.  On the other, it's that they like the contingency money as an amateur.  On the other is that it's not fair that when they are a junior that they have to race as an expert at another track.  "Oh, but I only do this for fun."  Then what's the problem?

K3...This is fun, this is fun, this is fun.  LOL!

[the_weggie_man]

I think there should be only am and ex, after that it's F-USA or pro AMA.  Those are your 3 levels of racers.

I do believe though that the CCS bump level is too low. Maybe they need to look at the point scale and change it.  I also don't believe in paying points as far down as they do.  You pay points to the fast guys, say top 15.  It's ridiculous paying points back as far as they do. That's how some these ams get bumped ahead of their time.

[Gixxer124]

For a guy who raced a tiny class like lightweight sportsman or the 125 class, it would be possible to finish third to fifth in every race, and still be 30 seconds off the pace.  A guy like this could show up more often than anyone else in the class, earn 1000 points,  and wind up champion!  

Sounds kind of like that guy in Formula 40. (except for the 30 seconds off the pace. ;D)

[Gixxer124]

Dave, if you can learn roadracing watching TV, more power to ya, you should be an expert.

Knowing I'd only have 1 practice session at Road America, (it rained that night and the track was wet :( :() I dug out the tape from the AMA suberbike race there. It had a onboard camera view of a complete lap of Eric Bostrom and Ben Spies. I watched them over and over. I couldn't believe how much it helped. I wonder if using PS2 does the same thing?

[the_weggie_man]

I don't know how that could help learn anything but track layout.

[Decreasing_Dave]

I dug out the tape from the AMA suberbike race there. It had a onboard camera view of a complete lap of Eric Bostrom and Ben Spies. I watched them over and over. I couldn't believe how much it helped. I wonder if using PS2 does the same thing?

Yes, It does help.  While I have never raced at Laguna Seca, I have done their "Ticket To Ride" twice at the WSB/AMA race.  The Laguna Seca track on PS helped me tremendously.  I knew where the track went and which turns were which.

In my own defense, I do watch racing on TV.  So does everyone else on this board.  I made that statement at that time because I was getting a little bagged on for trying to stay amature for my first full year (2003).

I agree "The Weg", the point scale may be too low.  It was nice receiving the points when I wasn't doing as well (Vegas).  It made me feel a little better about where I placed.  However, I never thought that even with my better finishes (Firebird) that I would be petitioning to stay amature!!

I don't have the money or resources to race expert this year and put forth a maximum effort.  Mainly because I never planned on it.

I know, I know, "it's supposed to be fun"  and it is, but Compettitive spirits have fun competitvely.  The fun goes away for some if they can't compete on the level for which they desire.

Flame away, I'm not Chicken....errr never mind. ;D

[GPgofast]

Probably the biggest issue with the whole amateur/expert debate relates to money. I am a first year amateur that has recieved enough points to go expert after 4 1/2 race weekends. I will probably petition to stay amateur one more year mainly because of contingency/purse money. Am I ready to go expert? I don't think so. Would I go expert if there was no money in amateur? In a heartbeat(it would allow me to race AFM without going throught their race school which is very hard to get into). I do understand that CCS is trying to pump up it's ranks with money and I will try and take advantage of it this year(I "won" a whole $65 last season-I don't think I will be doing much chery picking) but every bit helps the budget at this point. And also, I got to be on the track with Kane all year(can't say I raced with him). If there was ever an Amateur that was too fast for the class he was one of them.  That said, I do NOT begrudge Kane anything he earned this year. There was not a more dedicated racer this year in CCS Pacific or Southwest regions and he deserved everything he won. GP

[the_weggie_man]

Another reason CCS bumps ams is to alleviate huge am grids, mostly in the middleweight classes. without bumpinga fair amount of ams those grids would be uncontollable at most tracks.

[Decreasing_Dave]

Probably the biggest issue with the whole amateur/expert debate relates to money.

 I will probably petition to stay amateur one more year mainly because of contingency/purse money. Am I ready to go expert? I don't think so.

I got to be on the track with Kane all year(can't say I raced with him). If there was ever an Amateur that was too fast for the class he was one of them.  That said, I do NOT begrudge Kane anything he earned this year. There was not a more dedicated racer this year in CCS Pacific or Southwest regions and he deserved everything he won. GP

You're right about the money thing.  I did win some good money in my second weekend (Firebird).  It helped alot.  I also got to chase Kane around for 2 whole laps, before he walked away.  That helped alot too.  

What I'm afraid of is that CCS is going to be persistent about making me expert after the whole Kane Lasky debacle last year.  There was, as you know, a lot of noise made about him.  The question is, will CCS stick to there guns or not???

[GPgofast]

There was a lot of grumbling about Kane last year, although if CCS changes their policy because of him I beleive they are wrong. Kane was one of those very talented riders that just happened to dedicate a GREAT amount of time and money into his racing. If they want to prevent that, they will have to look at a bump procedure for midyear racers that are just to fast for the amateur class. And with the amount of money at stake in the amateur classes and CCS's reasons for even paying at the Novice level, I am not sure it would be in their interest to start bumping fast guys that perform well. Kane did get challenged toward the end of the year in the Pacific region and I beleive that if he would have raced Thunderhill the last weekend he may have gotten beat straight up by some of the fast Pacific region amateurs(not me!).  Kane didn't impress me as much at Thunderhill as he did at other venues that I saw him run at. At Las Vegas he was UNREAL. I think it is because Thunderhill is such a long track and in my experience it takes a lot of track time to really excel their. He set the track record in Vegas, yet he was well off the experts pace at Thunderhill. Just some random thoughts. GP

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

               LONG - BUT WORTH READING!!!
   I have an idea about how AMATUER UPGRADES could be handled fairly. Many have complained about not being ready to go expert, or the opposite situation where a fast, so called amatuer, racer shows up at some random events each year and takes all the 1st place $ winnings. This will handle those situations and more.
   Just as luck plays into racing, so does the skill level of the other racers you will be racing against as an amatuer or expert. Example; one year the amatuers may have the majority of their riders running a mid-pack pace then the next year there may be more of a split between the fast guys and the slower guys with very few mid-packers. This is where the 'performance factor' used in CCS is somewhat flawed, but acceptable based on the info used to reach it. It does not take into account the big gaps that often form between the last guy in the faster group and the 1st guy in the next group of bikes in a race.
   I believe the solution to these problems is with our new (expensive) timing system being implemented. With this we will be able to record an individuals performance and results. What I am suggesting should be able to be done through a spread sheet program without too much trouble.
   First thing needed is to average the lap times of each individual per class. I will use Heavyweight Sportbike (HWSport) for my example. If I am correct there is an expert class for every amatuer class of the same type (exp. HWSport am & ex). The front running expert lap times seem to be fairly consistent from year to year, the amatuer class is a different story though. In order to provide a more stable platform for judging the amatuers performance, the expert winners average lap time should be used as a reference for each class. Example; Expert HWSport winner did a 1:14.21 average of all their laps. Convert this to all seconds - 1:14.21 = 74.21 seconds. Now compare an individual amatuers average time (I will use 1:18.93 = 78.93 seconds) in the same class to the winning experts time. 78.93 / 74.21 = 1.0636. This gives you the percentage that the amatuers average lap times were slower than that of the winner of the same class in the expert race, which in this example is 6.36% slower.
   This percentage would be established for each class and also for overall performance as well, for each competitor. Then decide on a percentage of the expert winners average, which would be appropriate for moving someone from amatuer to expert status. This transition % could be established thru a racer poll held here as to what a fair % is to upgrade an amatuer (this would be fair since we are the ones out there racing). For example, If 10% slower was chosen that would mean that 81.63 seconds or 1:21.63 averages would qualify for expert status (using the sample averages above).
   The other questions the racers should be polled about is how long can an amatuer race after reaching this % (example; finish season / specific # of events at or below this % / time period such as months / or ?). Also, at what % a rider would have to make an immediate transition to expert status for their next event because they are just too good to be an amatuer.
   The nice thing about this system is that it is not affected by racing conditions because the experts and amatuers will race the same classes on the same days and both levels are slower in cold weather and rain. The other nice thing is that even if there was only 1 amatuer rider in a class, they would be judged as compared to the average of that classes expert winner. This would also force the guys that only race a few events as a so-called amatuer (to grab all the prize $) to go expert after some period of time (as determined by racer poll) because they would have to go below the previously mentioned % in order to win.
   I have invested alot of brain cells into this and would like to know if this seems fair to everyone out there or if it could be improved?

[Protein Filled]

How would you handle someone that is real fast at one track and real slow on other tracks? If I have to go to 6 different tracks in one season and I am real fast at my local track that I have ridden a few times, but I can't ride well anywhere else, how would you judge if I should get bumped?