Congratulations to our new experts for 2003!!!
Before this panty-wad starter goes too far, yes, you can still petition to stay amateur for one more season.
;D
REMINDER: DO NOT EMAIL OR FAX YOUR PETITIONS TO STAY AMATEUR NOW--SEND THEM IN WITH YOUR LICENSE RENEWAL!!!
JAY ADAMS
EDWARD ALVARADO
IKE ANDERSON
GINO ANGELLA
TONY ANGELLA
TODD ANSWINE
DANIEL ARMENAC
BART ASHBY
KEVIN BACKOVICH
ROB BAKER
TODD R BAKER
TIMOTHY BALLARD
MATTHEW BARKER
JOHN BARR
ALEXANDER BARRERA
TIMOTHY BARRETT
DEBRA BARTON
JAMMES BEARD
JOHN L. BEAUDRY
JOE BENNARDI JR.
JEREMY BENTZ
KIMBERLY BERG-OLSEN
KLEE S. BETHEL
EDWARD BINGHAM
DON BIR
JON BLAYLOCK
ROBERT BOROWICZ
JASON BOYCE
STEVE BRACK
JUSTYN BRADLEY
MALCOLM BRADSHER
J. MICHAEL BRANSON
JOHN BRIODY
JASON BRITTON
BRENT BROUSSARD
JEFF BROWN
KEVIN BROWN
MATTHEW BROWN
NED BROWN
MATTHEW BUCK
MATT BULLOCK
LAURION BURCHALL
TIMOTHY BURGE
KEN BURKE
DAVE BUTLER
PAUL BUXTON
ALFREDO CANTU JR.
ROBERT CARD
MARK CASE
JAMES CASMAY
WILLIAM CASPER
GARY CERVENY
MICHAEL CHACHERE
YOAN CHAVEZ
HENRY CHIN
HOWARD CHO
KEN CIVELLI
KEVIN C. CLARK
RICHARD TODD CLARK
ROBIN CLARK
TOM CLARKE
BRIAN CLIPPINGER
MIKE COLEMAN
ROSS J. COLEMAN
ROBERT COLLINS
THOMAS COLLINS
ANTHONY CONNOR
JAMES COPELAND
ALAN COX
JAMES CRABB
DERRICK CULLER
SCOTT CUNNINGHAM
SCOTT M. CUNNINGHAM
ERIC CUSTAR
DREW DALY
JOSEPH DALY
DARREN DANILOWICZ
JAMES DAVIDSON
RAUL DE LA SIERRA
BART DEFRANCESCO
MARK DENISIUK
MARK DENNIS
DAVID DIDIER
NICK DIGILIO
GARTH DILLON
STEVE DIVER
ERNIE DIX
WYATT DODD
ADAM DOLNEY
ALAN DOMAN
BOB DOMENZ
EDGAR DORN
KENNETH DREYER
CURTISS DRIVER
DOUGLAS DUBSON
ADAM DURHAM
JIM EGLINGER
CHRISTOPHER EICH
JAMES EICKEL
MICHAEL E ELLIOTT
MIKE EMERY
DAVID EVANS JR.
JOE FANARA
RALPH FERNANDEZ
ALEX FERREIRA
ANDY FEUERSTHALER
KELLY FINNERTY
JEFF FOLLIS
JOSEPH J. FORD
KEENAN FOSTER
DUANE FRANCIS
BRIAN FREIRE
ROBERT FUSZNER
MIKE GANTZ
CHRIS GEARY
THOMAS GERMAN
SKYE GIRARD
ROBERT GLITTONE
JASON GODWIN
BRIAN GORDON
BRIAN GOSZEWSKI
STEVEN GOULD
CHAD GOULDING
BRAD GRAHAM
CORDELL GREEN
ROBERT GRESENS
KARL HAMANN
TROY HANSEN
CARY HARBISON
SCOTT WILLIAM HARTER
NATHAN HARTMAN
THOMAS HEATH
SEAN HEYDORN
GAVIN HICKSON
DAVID HOCKENBERRY
JIM HOLMEN
DONALD HOOKS
CHARLES L. HUDSON JR.
CHRIS HUNT
JOSEPH HUTT
RYAN IMBODEN
IVAN IVERSON
JOE JACKSON
SCOTT JACKSON
JESSE JANISCH
JOEL SHERMAN JESSEE
JAMES JESSIE
STEPHEN JOHN
ERIC JOHNOFF
ERIC JOHNSEY
BRIAN JOHNSON
JEFF JOHNSON
PATRICK R. JOHNSON
HAROLD W. JORDAN
B.A. JUSTICE
SCOTT KARA
DONNY KELLY
DEREK KEYES
GARY KIEL JR.
CHAD M. KING
KEVIN KLINE
G. PAUL KNOCHE
JEFFREY KUFALK
BRIAN KWAK
ROBERT A. LACAVICH JR.
KURT LACHERMEIER
R BRYAN LAND
THOMAS LANING
KENT LARSON
KANE LASKY
JEFFREY LEE
JESTIN LENGYEL
JOSH LENZ
TOMER LEVY
BRIAN LOGAN
DAVID M LOIKITS
CHRIS LOSSIE
AARON LOWE
RHIANNON LUCENTE
MICHAEL LUKE
WERNER LURTZ
RANDY MAHR
JASON MAI
ANDREW MANER
JOE MARTIN
RAMON MARTINEZ
RICK MASTERS
JEFF MC BRIDE
CECIL MC CRACKEN
RICHARD MC MANIMEN
BRIAN MCCORD
RICHARD MCCULLOUGH
GRAHAM MCINTYRE
CHRISTIAN MELGARD
LEONARD MELLGREN
ERNESTO MENENDEZ
CHRIS MERKLEIN
HARLEY DAVIDSON MIGNEAULT
JEFF MOORE
STEPHEN MOORE
PETE MORAVEK
MARK W. MORGAN
JASON MOSS
EDWARD A NASH
BRETT NELSON
MARK NELSON
SANG NGUYEN
WAYNE NIELSEN
ALEJANDRO NIEVES
ERIK NOLAN
LUIS NORIEGA
LEONARD NOVAK
JIM O'CONNOR
CHRISTOPHER ONWILER
DAN ORTEGA
KENNY OYEN
PAUL OZGUNDUZ
GABREAL PALMER
GREG PARK
THOMAS PARKMAN
BILLY PEDRO
BRIAN S. PERDUE
MARC PEREZ
RAYMEL PEREZ
ANTONIO PICCIONI
GREG PITTS
DARBY POOL
MADISON B PORTER IV
TRENT PRATER
TREVOR PRATER
JAKE PROESCH
PATRICK QUINN
RODOLFO RAMIREZ
DON RANKIN
SAMUAL G. RAYBOURN
JOHN REDLING
GILBERT REECE
ERIC REYNOLDS
KEN RIDLER
MICHAEL RIFFELL
JOSEPH J RIFFICE
KIRK J. RIGHT
JIM ROACH
MARK ROBERTS
DAVID ROBERTSON
KEVIN P. ROBINSON
MICHAEL ROESER
DIEGO A. ROJAS
PEDER ROSS-PEDERSEN
KEITH ROYLE
DOUG RUMER
JEFF RUSSELL
JOSEPH RUSSO
DAN SALVER
DAVID SANDERS
KEITH SANDERSON
RALPHAEL SANFILIPPO
SHANNON SANTONI
DAVID SCHAPSON
JON SCHENDEL
RICHARD SCHERTZL
DIRK SCHUMANN
RICHARD SERMAK
MICHAEL SHALLCROSS
BRIAN SHAW
TONY SHORTMAN
STEVEN SIDMAN
JOHN SINE
J. SNOW
MARK SORENSEN
MARCUS SOUTHERN
PETER SPILGER
JOHN SPINELLI
BOBBY STELLFOX
CHRIS STEPHENS
JED STEWARD
ANTHONY J STORNIOLO
DAVID SUSKEVICH
BRIAN S. SWEAD
CHRIS SWEIGARD
MARC SWEIGARD
CAMERON SYDENHAM
DANNY TACKETT, DMD
CHRISTOPHER TARDIEU
RYAN TEIXEIRA
WAY THANG
DESMONDO THOMAS
JOEY THOMAS
ALVARO TOLEDO
JAMES TOOHEY
URAYOAN TORRES
JOHN URAYAMA
GERMAN G VACCA
CHRIS VAN ANDEL
DAVID VAUGHN
MIKE VIIRRE
ROBERT T WAGNER
WARREN WAGNER
JEFF WALKER
TERRY WALKER
NEAL WALLBAUM
JACOB C. WARREN
BRIAN WAUGH
THOMAS WEAVER
MATHEW WEBER
BRIAN E WEISS
MIKE WEMMER
THOMAS WESTFALL
MARK WHITE
RONALD WHITE
BRIEN WHITLOCK
BENJAMIN WILCOX
EDWARD WILSON
JONATHAN WUYTACK
SEAN WYATT
DAVID YESKI
ROY L(TREY) YONCE
BLAKE YOUNG
JONATHAN ZEHR
DAFAN ZHANG
JOSEPH ZUENGLER
DAVID ZUVIC
Are we allowed to suggest other names to be added?
lol...who'd i miss???
I'm thinking Ivan Garza from the SW region but I am sure I can come up with some more :).
Tiffiney,
Who do we send the petition to? What should be included in the petition besides the "I suck and this is my first year blah blah blah" ? Thanks :)
Don't forget to include the chocolate and flowers with the petition...
Yeah... what Super Duck said... you really REALLY don't want my name on that list. ???
REMINDER: DO NOT EMAIL OR FAX YOUR PETITIONS TO STAY AMATEUR NOW--SEND THEM IN WITH YOUR LICENSE RENEWAL!!!
Yay! Looks like there'll be a nice new crop of Amateurs in the LW classes. Hopefully I'll have a chance of some good finishes this year :)
Hey Tiff,
I'll spare you the flames, but it looks as though CCS does go by the 500 point rule after all.
Only 2 race weekends and I'm an expert??? I wish it worked that way at my job too! ;D
What kind of chocolate is it??
D. Dave
Dave you're a duck! ;D
Yeah I saw that. ;D
Now I'm just plain old Happy :-/
QuoteYeah I saw that. ;D
Now I'm just plain old Happy :-/
What, you didn't like my icons?
No Eddie, I was just very afraid of what you might put up there next ;D
QuoteNo Eddie, I was just very afraid of what you might put up there next ;D
Chicken! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nooooo, not chicken....Dancing banana!!!
Icon away..if you dare ;D
Brian Kwak...Welcome to the world of experts.
I thought you were going to stay Am. Glad to see that you converted.
.....And I thought you were a puss.
My apologies Dr. Kwak. I have a new found respect for you! No more smak talking ...you are a man.
YTAK
thats just the list of people who supposed to upgrade, not all of them will accept, and many will petition to stay AM. Puss like me I guess :-[ :P
Please dont anyone take offence to my comments re staying novice. My comments are just directed to Dr. Kwak. ...well 99% of my comments are directed towards the verbal abuse of Mr. Kwak.
I could e-mail him directly but its much more fun on the this forum. :)
can you petition to be expert if your not upgraded?
QuotePlease dont anyone take offence to my comments re staying novice. My comments are just directed to Dr. Kwak. ...well 99% of my comments are directed towards the verbal abuse of Mr. Kwak.
I could e-mail him directly but its much more fun on the this forum. :)
I didn't :) I just wanted to point out that many of us puss hasn't and will not accept the list ;D
It is fun on the board, I am sure if I win races next year I will be called a cherry picker... ::) :P
:)cherry picker :)
I think that there should be a minimum performance index or the rules should state a certain number of points in one class. Heck, if you ran a 600 in all of it's available classes on a double points weekend you would easily be expert without passing anyone. My only reason for petitioning is that I am on a different bike now, is that good enough? What about if I am going to run USGPRU, can I stay Amateur? Is the amount of chocolate required directly proportional to the number of points we have? And lastly, at least I don't have to have the "it's flourescent yellow and the rules didn't state which shade they wanted" argument again :).
I agree that there should be a more realistic criterion to determine expert/amateur status(combination of points/performance index maybe?).
QuoteBrian Kwak...Welcome to the world of experts.
I thought you were going to stay Am. Glad to see that you converted.
.....And I thought you were a puss.
My apologies Dr. Kwak. I have a new found respect for you! No more smak talking ...you are a man.
YTAK
Brian is going expert? Congratulations Brian!!! I knew you would change your mind and not try to sandbag!
;D
Dave...how did you get more than 500 points in two race weekends? You must be expert material as I would think you must of won every race you entered to accomplish that amazing feat! ;D
if you enter 7 races per weekend and finish 10th in every race, you will have 560 points in 2 weekends.
i'll definetly petition to stay amateur, considering the fact that i'm switching from MW to LW this season! plus i got some crappy PI in the 200s. so where do i send the chocolate?
If my math is correct, it would only require an average 5th place finish in 5 classes, times 2 events, to achieve 500 points.
If this is representative of your average finishes, then your going to spank the competition if you stay amateur (because of all the top amateurs going expert).
First of all... who said I was turning expert? I'm petitioning to stay amateur. It will be up to CCS whether I show up with yellow or white plates next year. Besides... I have a paint scheme already picked out for my new bike and it has yellow plates! It just won't look good with white plates.. what can I do? ;) Wuytack... don't playa hate.... participate fool! Edgar... I'm starting second wave next year.. don't congratulate me yet.. 8)
Amen Rev. ;D.
Guys! Geez, it's just the list of people who earned 500 points or more. Yes, all of you have been bumped up, but you have one year to petition to stay amateur. However, if you were an amateur in 2001, were bumped up for the 2002 season and petitioned to stay amateur, you MUST move up to the amateur level. I know there is some argument to how this selection is done, but it is in the rulebook this way, and just like y'all do, I have to go by what it says.
:-/
I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna :(
Who's got the phone number for WERA? :-*
QuoteWho's got the phone number for WERA? :-*
I think the WERA rule book says you are required to notify them if you have EX status with CCS. In which case, they'll probably bump you up, too.
I suppose you could "forget" to tell them and race as an WERA NV anyway, but they might not treat you too nicely if you did that and one of your competitors reported your CCS EX status to them after you've been racing as a WERA NV.
- Stu
QuoteI think the WERA rule book says you are required to notify them if you have EX status with CCS. In which case, they'll probably bump you up, too.
I suppose you could "forget" to tell them and race as an WERA NV anyway, but they might not treat you too nicely if you did that and one of your competitors reported your CCS EX status to them after you've been racing as a WERA NV.
- Stu
Interesting, what if you don't renew your CCS license, and just present your AM license to WERA and get their Novice license? Techinically you are not an EX because you did not obtain that classification because you did not buy your license for 2003.
I don't have that problem and will be an Expert nontheless in '04, but I know of a few friends who wants to go to WERA and race NV, because they already petitioned for '02
so we take the season points from '01, and see who already petitioned to stay down, the rest from the above list would be the super AM of 2004 :D
It's ridiculous to run to WERA just to stay Am. If you are being bumped for the 2nd year in a row, then you should be EX. period.
I know a few who are trying that crap, I'm sure Sean over @ WERA would be interested to know the deal as well.
BTW..I personally was all set to stay am in my 2nd year, but now I'm not sure.
Ned Brown "Peanut"
Am #298 EX??
QuoteIt's ridiculous to run to WERA just to stay Am. If you are being bumped for the 2nd year in a row, then you should be EX. period.
I know a few who are trying that crap, I'm sure Sean over @ WERA would be interested to know the deal as well.
BTW..I personally was all set to stay am in my 2nd year, but now I'm not sure.
Ned Brown "Peanut"
Am #298 EX??
5-1/2 weekends (all at the same track) in two years don't make an expert :-*
Anyway, the first time they tried to bump me after 3 weekends was crap!
And Peanut, my WERA comment was a joke ::)
Quote5-1/2 weekends (all at the same track) in two years don't make an expert :-*
Anyway, the first time they tried to bump me after 3 weekends was crap!
And Peanut, my WERA comment was a joke ::)
I know you were joking, but it does happen...
Yeski, stop your whining. In two races your lap times are only a couple seconds off the top experts. Get those plates whitened out so we can pick on you ;)
Dusty
Hey Dusty,
I was wondering when you would chime in.
I think that the lap timer you loaned me was rigged. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Honestly, my times were varying as much as 1.4 seconds within 10 laps. And I know I wasn't hittng my marks everytime. A little more practice is required (beating up on amatures?) Besides, think of how fast I could be if I do finally hit those marks. ;D ;D ;D
Admit it, you just want me in the expert class so that you can beat the hell out of me. >:( ;)
I thought the best way to get faster was to race with people who are faster than you. All the cherry pickers quit whining and turn EX. I personally would turn EX if my times were within a sec or two of the EX so my learning would not stagnate.
Dave you are such a chicken! ;D
i dunno what all the whining is about just get out there and race !!!!!
nuff said. :o
next ;D
Just kidding Dave. Two races whether you are fast or not is not alot of time out there. Winning the Amateur class is WAY different than dicing with 5 or more guys every corner. Stay AM and if your fast you will be racing with the experts after the first lap anyways. :o
Can't wait to get out there!
Dusty #30 Southwest
Yeah there's no way I want to go expert this year. That's right Eddie, I'm chicken ....see?
For the rest of you guys, before I'm flamed to death, it really has been only 2 race weekends for me. I got my speed from the street, beating up on the locals. This track thing is really different. On the street, you don't have to worry about hitting the same lines over and over, because you won't see that corner again until next weekend. ;D
Bumping plastic/fiberglass on the street is bad juju. On the track, it's ALMOST a requirement. :o
I have a lot to learn
Can someone please get him an icon of a chicken picking cherries?
Believe it or not, as race director I one time bumped a guy from am to ex in one day. I don't recall his name right off hand but he smoked everyone in am on Saturday, I mean ran away from them, so he was an ex on Sunday. No am had a chance against this guy and he was not licensed anywhere else, a street rider.
The guy raced all of two seasons and disappeared. Never heard of him again. Went boat racing or some nonsense.
So yeah, if someone goes out and kicks butt on two weekends he obviously knows his way around a race track and maybe should be expert.
Just watch where you spit those seeds after you pick 'em.
QuoteSo yeah, if someone goes out and kicks butt on two weekends he obviously knows his way around a race track and maybe should be expert.
I watch a lot of races on TV. The coverage on Speed is amazing. You'd be suprised what you could learn. ;D ;D ;D
QuoteCan someone please get him an icon of a chicken picking cherries?
Hey Litespeed,
Didn't I see your name on the expert list???
;D
Yeah, unfortunately I saw it there too. But i'm going to go race with a different organizatoin so that I can ignore it. Actually I just sent in for my USGPRU license and went ahead and got the expert status. I will probably finish last in every race but at least I won't be called a cherrypicker....cherrypicker.
Quote...but at least I won't be called a cherrypicker....cherrypicker.
I think you have to be winning to get that monicker ;D
I'm just clowning w/ ya Litespeed ;) 8)
Dave, if you can learn roadracing watching TV, more power to ya, you should be an expert.
<----------- Thanks for the idea :)
so, if you win a championship,or have 500 pts. you get upgraded? is this in any classes?even small ones?
Quoteso, if you win a championship,or have 500 pts. you get upgraded? is this in any classes?even small ones?
Well... Yes and no. CCS will automaticly try to raise you to expert the instant you earn 500 points. I've never thought this to be fair at face value, but it's starting to make more sense to me now. If a guy can earn 500 points in Middleweight, he's either good or racing constantly to become good. A petition will allow CCS to look at hs situation and decide which it is. You are allowed to petition to stay amateur. For a guy who raced a tiny class like lightweight sportsman or the 125 class, it would be possible to finish third to fifth in every race, and still be 30 seconds off the pace. A guy like this could show up more often than anyone else in the class, earn 1000 points, and wind up champion! That's where the petition comes in.
Last year I petitioned and was granted a reprieve. I had more than 500 points, but had never finished higher than tenth. I was 10 seconds off a good amateur, and 15 seconds off the best experts. Reprieve in hand, and knowing that it would be my last amateur year, I went all out. I built a wicked superbike right to the edge of the rules, invested in tires, and the took Visionsports school. My efforts were rewarded, and now my punishment is to turn expert. For me, the system worked exactly the way it should.
I had a guy come to my school and we got him licensed as an expert first weekend too. It was just the right thing to do for him.
As for expert vs amateur...
Amateur should just be a momentary stopping ground to learn how things work then off you go. Too much emphasis on amateur racing. It's nice and all, but the status of amatuer really applies to only a few.
I don't know how to make it better, but a guy that races for three to five events every year for three to five years is no amateur. You know how the game works, you know things that a guy that is first putting his tires on the track, a true amateur.
Maybe there should be amateur, expert, and pro classes at CCS events. Limit the Pro events to a smaller number of events with bigger purses. Amateurs would have to fit into a tighter, narrower classification. Experts would compromise a good number of fast amatuers and not as fast experts. These are the riders that are "having fun" or trying to become pro.
There has been some complaints about how LRRS is different with amateur, junior, and expert rankings. Well, I asked about it years ago in the interest of safety. Got knocked down for good reason. It didn't make sense. But in ways it did in my mind, because there were so many multi-year amateurs that did well and seemed to buck the system from becoming and expert, where they clearly belonged.
Anyone have thoughts on this idea? I bagged on someone on another post because I get so sick and tired of people complaining about having to be an expert when they are a junior in LRRS. I am still tired of it. On one side, I am told that they race for fun. On the other, it's that they like the contingency money as an amateur. On the other is that it's not fair that when they are a junior that they have to race as an expert at another track. "Oh, but I only do this for fun." Then what's the problem?
K3...This is fun, this is fun, this is fun. LOL!
I think there should be only am and ex, after that it's F-USA or pro AMA. Those are your 3 levels of racers.
I do believe though that the CCS bump level is too low. Maybe they need to look at the point scale and change it. I also don't believe in paying points as far down as they do. You pay points to the fast guys, say top 15. It's ridiculous paying points back as far as they do. That's how some these ams get bumped ahead of their time.
QuoteFor a guy who raced a tiny class like lightweight sportsman or the 125 class, it would be possible to finish third to fifth in every race, and still be 30 seconds off the pace. A guy like this could show up more often than anyone else in the class, earn 1000 points, and wind up champion!
Sounds kind of like that guy in Formula 40. (except for the 30 seconds off the pace. ;D)
QuoteDave, if you can learn roadracing watching TV, more power to ya, you should be an expert.
Knowing I'd only have 1 practice session at Road America, (it rained that night and the track was wet :( :() I dug out the tape from the AMA suberbike race there. It had a onboard camera view of a complete lap of Eric Bostrom and Ben Spies. I watched them over and over. I couldn't believe how much it helped. I wonder if using PS2 does the same thing?
I don't know how that could help learn anything but track layout.
QuoteI dug out the tape from the AMA suberbike race there. It had a onboard camera view of a complete lap of Eric Bostrom and Ben Spies. I watched them over and over. I couldn't believe how much it helped. I wonder if using PS2 does the same thing?
Yes, It does help. While I have never raced at Laguna Seca, I have done their "Ticket To Ride" twice at the WSB/AMA race. The Laguna Seca track on PS helped me tremendously. I knew where the track went and which turns were which.
In my own defense, I do watch racing on TV. So does everyone else on this board. I made that statement at that time because I was getting a little bagged on for trying to stay amature for my first full year (2003).
I agree "The Weg", the point scale may be too low. It was nice receiving the points when I wasn't doing as well (Vegas). It made me feel a little better about where I placed. However, I never thought that even with my better finishes (Firebird) that I would be petitioning to stay amature!!
I don't have the money or resources to race expert this year and put forth a maximum effort. Mainly because I never planned on it.
I know, I know, "it's supposed to be fun" and it is, but Compettitive spirits have fun competitvely. The fun goes away for some if they can't compete on the level for which they desire.
Flame away, I'm not Chicken....errr never mind. ;D
Probably the biggest issue with the whole amateur/expert debate relates to money. I am a first year amateur that has recieved enough points to go expert after 4 1/2 race weekends. I will probably petition to stay amateur one more year mainly because of contingency/purse money. Am I ready to go expert? I don't think so. Would I go expert if there was no money in amateur? In a heartbeat(it would allow me to race AFM without going throught their race school which is very hard to get into). I do understand that CCS is trying to pump up it's ranks with money and I will try and take advantage of it this year(I "won" a whole $65 last season-I don't think I will be doing much chery picking) but every bit helps the budget at this point. And also, I got to be on the track with Kane all year(can't say I raced with him). If there was ever an Amateur that was too fast for the class he was one of them. That said, I do NOT begrudge Kane anything he earned this year. There was not a more dedicated racer this year in CCS Pacific or Southwest regions and he deserved everything he won. GP
Another reason CCS bumps ams is to alleviate huge am grids, mostly in the middleweight classes. without bumpinga fair amount of ams those grids would be uncontollable at most tracks.
QuoteProbably the biggest issue with the whole amateur/expert debate relates to money.
I will probably petition to stay amateur one more year mainly because of contingency/purse money. Am I ready to go expert? I don't think so.
I got to be on the track with Kane all year(can't say I raced with him). If there was ever an Amateur that was too fast for the class he was one of them. That said, I do NOT begrudge Kane anything he earned this year. There was not a more dedicated racer this year in CCS Pacific or Southwest regions and he deserved everything he won. GP
You're right about the money thing. I did win some good money in my second weekend (Firebird). It helped alot. I also got to chase Kane around for 2 whole laps, before he walked away. That helped alot too.
What I'm afraid of is that CCS is going to be persistent about making me expert after the whole Kane Lasky debacle last year. There was, as you know, a lot of noise made about him. The question is, will CCS stick to there guns or not???
There was a lot of grumbling about Kane last year, although if CCS changes their policy because of him I beleive they are wrong. Kane was one of those very talented riders that just happened to dedicate a GREAT amount of time and money into his racing. If they want to prevent that, they will have to look at a bump procedure for midyear racers that are just to fast for the amateur class. And with the amount of money at stake in the amateur classes and CCS's reasons for even paying at the Novice level, I am not sure it would be in their interest to start bumping fast guys that perform well. Kane did get challenged toward the end of the year in the Pacific region and I beleive that if he would have raced Thunderhill the last weekend he may have gotten beat straight up by some of the fast Pacific region amateurs(not me!). Kane didn't impress me as much at Thunderhill as he did at other venues that I saw him run at. At Las Vegas he was UNREAL. I think it is because Thunderhill is such a long track and in my experience it takes a lot of track time to really excel their. He set the track record in Vegas, yet he was well off the experts pace at Thunderhill. Just some random thoughts. GP
LONG - BUT WORTH READING!!!
I have an idea about how AMATUER UPGRADES could be handled fairly. Many have complained about not being ready to go expert, or the opposite situation where a fast, so called amatuer, racer shows up at some random events each year and takes all the 1st place $ winnings. This will handle those situations and more.
Just as luck plays into racing, so does the skill level of the other racers you will be racing against as an amatuer or expert. Example; one year the amatuers may have the majority of their riders running a mid-pack pace then the next year there may be more of a split between the fast guys and the slower guys with very few mid-packers. This is where the 'performance factor' used in CCS is somewhat flawed, but acceptable based on the info used to reach it. It does not take into account the big gaps that often form between the last guy in the faster group and the 1st guy in the next group of bikes in a race.
I believe the solution to these problems is with our new (expensive) timing system being implemented. With this we will be able to record an individuals performance and results. What I am suggesting should be able to be done through a spread sheet program without too much trouble.
First thing needed is to average the lap times of each individual per class. I will use Heavyweight Sportbike (HWSport) for my example. If I am correct there is an expert class for every amatuer class of the same type (exp. HWSport am & ex). The front running expert lap times seem to be fairly consistent from year to year, the amatuer class is a different story though. In order to provide a more stable platform for judging the amatuers performance, the expert winners average lap time should be used as a reference for each class. Example; Expert HWSport winner did a 1:14.21 average of all their laps. Convert this to all seconds - 1:14.21 = 74.21 seconds. Now compare an individual amatuers average time (I will use 1:18.93 = 78.93 seconds) in the same class to the winning experts time. 78.93 / 74.21 = 1.0636. This gives you the percentage that the amatuers average lap times were slower than that of the winner of the same class in the expert race, which in this example is 6.36% slower.
This percentage would be established for each class and also for overall performance as well, for each competitor. Then decide on a percentage of the expert winners average, which would be appropriate for moving someone from amatuer to expert status. This transition % could be established thru a racer poll held here as to what a fair % is to upgrade an amatuer (this would be fair since we are the ones out there racing). For example, If 10% slower was chosen that would mean that 81.63 seconds or 1:21.63 averages would qualify for expert status (using the sample averages above).
The other questions the racers should be polled about is how long can an amatuer race after reaching this % (example; finish season / specific # of events at or below this % / time period such as months / or ?). Also, at what % a rider would have to make an immediate transition to expert status for their next event because they are just too good to be an amatuer.
The nice thing about this system is that it is not affected by racing conditions because the experts and amatuers will race the same classes on the same days and both levels are slower in cold weather and rain. The other nice thing is that even if there was only 1 amatuer rider in a class, they would be judged as compared to the average of that classes expert winner. This would also force the guys that only race a few events as a so-called amatuer (to grab all the prize $) to go expert after some period of time (as determined by racer poll) because they would have to go below the previously mentioned % in order to win.
I have invested alot of brain cells into this and would like to know if this seems fair to everyone out there or if it could be improved?
How would you handle someone that is real fast at one track and real slow on other tracks? If I have to go to 6 different tracks in one season and I am real fast at my local track that I have ridden a few times, but I can't ride well anywhere else, how would you judge if I should get bumped?
This is one of the concerns I had also thought of because most people are better at some tracks than others. As I had suggested, after achieving a certain average %, then allow that person to continue racing amatuer for some period of time as determined thru a racer opinion poll. If you happen to achieve the other % of being too fast at that track to stay amatuer (ultimately requiring an immediate move to expert status for your next event) but are much slower at the other tracks, then mabey the too fast % should only be enforced if achieved at 2 different tracks. I believe that your average for the whole event and not just 1 class should be used in making these decisions.
The other thing I am thinking is that if you have this much ability at one track that it should be soon to follow at the other tracks. As for if you only race your local track and very rarely others, then laying down the smack down on the other amatuers year after year at this track isn't really fair or representative of being an amatuer. Going expert will only make you faster and force you to get even better than you may already be (I realize that it's nice to win, but at least make it a challenge if your that good at your local track).
This is the type of question that helps to refine this type of system and would make it even more fair to everyone. I still believe that the racers know best in this situation and should be involved in determining what percentages should be used. The way I see it, this system would be alot more accurate than the point system currently being used to advance amatuers and would show that they actually have the ability to keep up with the experts.
...And what would you do in Kane's case at Las Vegas where he set the TRACK RECORD!!! Move some experts back to Amateur...
...and also, it may sound like I am against Kane, the opposite is true. I feel if he wanted to stay amateur all season it was his right. I felt he had as much right to the prize money as the next guy, maybe more in fact when you looked at his commitment. The entire problem with the amateur/expert situation is $$$. If there was no money in the amateur's, Kane would have bumped himself up to expert after the first weekend, just to be eleigible for the prize money. When the system is set up as it is, I don't feel you should punish someone for being good. Change the system. My .02 cents.
I don't believe the system should be used to automatically move slower experts back to amatuer, but could be used as an accurate judge of ability if that person did indeed want to take the step back to amatuer.
As for the amatuer classes, I have always thought that this is a place for racers of unyet refined ability to race against each other and actually have a chance to place well. The contingency that is offered to amatuers (by the manufacturers) is offered to get them to use a specific manufacturers product as a beginner, hoping that they will like that product and stick with it thru their racing carreer - an investment in those companies future. The money classes in amatuer are for a similar reason, racing is expensive and this provides them an attainable reward for there investment. Even something as simple as a plaque to hang on the wall is a reward.
Racing is very addictive but is still affected by the hollowness of not having some type of reward for your effort. Imagine if only the experts recieved trophies, contingency, and all the prize money. More of the amatuers would then be looking forward to going expert as soon as they qualified to do so. The status of that white plate is desired by almost every racer, but it can be intimidating to make that move also.
I believe that staying amatuer for no reason other than the money is not what the amatuer class is intended for. Staying in the amatuer class when you should without a doubt be expert is like staying in middle school because that's where you are on the honor roll, instead of going on to high school. The system I proposed would help amatuers to easily see how they compare to the experts in the same classes.
For reasons listed above it would make more sense to reward the move to expert, instead of rewarding someone more for keeping the training wheels on (amatuer class) and not moving on to where they belong. I think that paying more money in the expert classes (say back to 10th or 15th place) and less in the amatuer classes would improve racing all together and give the amatuers more desire to become expert.
This is not intended to offend anyone, but I imagine it will.
QuoteI don't know how that could help learn anything but track layout.
OK Weg, how about race lines? I'm pretty sure they were taking the fast way around the track. And isn't learning the layout real important too? First you dog me to go expert and learn the fast way around a track, then I use a video to do basically the same thing and it's a bad idea? What did I do to you? ??? :P ;D ;D
;D
Mike, I like your idea. You've got my vote! Even if they did'nt go to electronic scoring, if there was a racer in question, a stopwatch could be used. I've seen them take the time to use one for guys running close to a lap record. ;D
Quote I have invested alot of brain cells into this and would like to know if this seems fair to everyone out there or if it could be improved?
I believe that it was a good brain cell investment.
I also think GP is right. Money is the root of all evil, as far as staying amateur. I need it, I want it, I'm a first year racer, too bad if I'm faster than you. This is the mentality and I have to be honest, I'm in there too. Racing is expensive, show me the money!
My $.01 (can't spare .02, I have a race coming up) ;D
As far as the amateur money thing is concerned I don't really want the money taken away from the amateurs, I just don't want it to be the reason for people to not go expert. Racing is expensive and any money you can win does help, especially after seeing the latest increases in fees for everything in the 2003 season. It is so much of a double edged sword though, too much money available and people don't want to move on to expert. It just doesn't make sense to me for there not to be a much more desirable difference in rewards to want to go expert (both money and contingency). But on the other hand by then your already hooked on racing and they must think they will create more business by enticing the amateurs with rewards (even though many amateurs look up to the experts and their opinions on products and services). After all, the long term racers (pronounced long-term revenue) are experts and provide the stable money base for CCS & the race product manufacturers thru their personal purchases and suggestions to amateurs as to which products they use.
Mike, I agree.
Here's my take. I'm a realist. I've raced 2 weekends. I did well my second weekend, but I was very inconsistent with my lines and lap times. I believe that once I get things sorted out, that money or not, I'm going to be bored in Amateur. As errogant as that sounds, if this turns out to be the case, I'll voluntarily move up before the end of the season.
You won't hear this from all the other Amateurs.
Kevin, relax man. I dogged you about status because you won 2 championships and you should be an expert in '03. I don't care what you did in other classes, they don't count.
As for the videos, I never said it was a bad idea, just that about all you could learn is layout, that would include lines .... Being a champion you should know there's alot more to learn than that. ;D ;D
I wish you a great '03 season.
;D ;D ;D