Power to Weight ratio and the IRL

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     I mentioned previously in other subjects that many race organizations around the world have been considering adding racer minimum weights to the already existant vehicle minimum weights. This was already in the works before Danica went to Indy this year, but sadly many seem to think the complaining is because she's female, not because of the 100 lb advantage she has. When a few 1/100ths of a second per lap can make the difference between 1 racer beating another you have to realize that Power to Weight ratio does effect that small of a difference in lap times thru slightly reduced acceleration.

     My brother drag races cars and has a computer program that will show your 1/4 mile time based on your cars Power to Weight ratio, gearing, and tire width/diameter. The accuracy of that program is crazy accurate and will usually be within 1/10 of a second or so in predicting 1/4 mile times. We have messed around with different weights and Hp's to see what it does and it definately shows the advantage that lower weight has on acceleration.

     I'm very curious to hear what others think on this subject. I know there are some that will say you have to be a fast racer before this will ever be a factor, but that's what I'm talking about here, Professional level racing. :)

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Easy.  This has already been discussed, so let me save you a bunch of time.  Us big guys totally agree that the bike and rider should be weighed together.  Dave Rosno will tell you from his years of personal experience that the 250 lb man is at no disadvantage to the 100 lb man, and therefore just needs to ride better....
Since Super Dave has never been wrong, rider weight obviously makes NO difference in racing.

[EX#996]

Easy.  This has already been discussed, so let me save you a bunch of time.  Us big guys totally agree that the bike and rider should be weighed together.  Dave Rosno will tell you from his years of personal experience that the 250 lb man is at no disadvantage to the 100 lb man, and therefore just needs to ride better....
Since Super Dave has never been wrong, rider weight obviously makes NO difference in racing.

Ditto!

 ;D

[Steviebee]

well i guess then jason disalvo would be out of a job

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

well i guess then jason disalvo would be out of a job

     Actually no, all it would mean is that if he was 120lbs, and 170 lbs was established as a reasonable rider minimum, they would have to add 50 lbs to his bike, no matter what the weight of the bike is on it's own. The reasoning is to establish a more consistent baseline for competition that's based on skill, not a weight advantage. There was original talk about combined rider/vehicle minumums (which some race organizations use) but the flaw in this is that it still promotes having the lightest driver/rider (which gives those teams an advantage by increasing sizes of components on the vehicle in places which may bring an added advantage, in engines or suspension components for example). This meant that many very talented racer have been looked past because they were 6'-2" and 205lbs.

     The original foundation of implementing racer minumum weights came about due to only smaller racers being considered for positions in certain types of motorsports racing due to their lesser weight. A perfect example (though not a motorsport, but it does have horsepower  ;)) is to look at horse jockeys, how many 200 lb riders do you see winning there? It's physically impossible for most guys to be able to reach the horse jockeys light weight and therefore eliminates most guys from ever having a true shot at making it there. A heavier racer has to work much harder just to keep up with a lighter racer due to less acceleration and top end. Also I don't mean leveling the field for someone who's drastically out of shape, but instead for people who are at a healthy weight for their size.

     I can think of numerous front running racers in motorcycle road racing, from Experts to MotoGP, that are there in large part due to their smaller size. There are many fast racers out there, things like this are what can mean the difference between who is given an opportunity and who isn't. I don't see what the big deal would be about adding the racer minimum weight to many forms of motorsports, if anything I think it would help to increase competition and remove rider weight advantage as a reason for someone to win over another. After all, if power to weight ratio didn't make a difference then why are there so many racers that run only partially full gas tanks and remove as much weight from their bikes as they can get away with?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Only thing is, a hundred pounds really isnt that big of a deal in auto racing. Might be more if every car was built the same, same horsepower, same handling, same downforce. But every chassis/motor combo is different in IRL.

Jimmy Spenser isnt exactly a 'small' guy (245-260 or so) and he's won races against guys who are 140-160.

But its so funny to see Robby "Capt Crybaby" Gordon trying to backpedal his foot out of his mouth. ;D

[Baltobuell]

That would be all well and good but think of the little guys side of it. In Highschool football was not an option, Baseball he should only look for basehits, Basketball, duh! So he finds a sport he MAY or may not, due to stamina, have an advantage. Growing is harder than going on a diet.
 Bikes it MAY help. Cars, I don't think so.

[Super Dave]

Easy.  This has already been discussed, so let me save you a bunch of time.  Us big guys totally agree that the bike and rider should be weighed together.  Dave Rosno will tell you from his years of personal experience that the 250 lb man is at no disadvantage to the 100 lb man, and therefore just needs to ride better....
Since Super Dave has never been wrong, rider weight obviously makes NO difference in racing.

But I have always been in favor of a rider and bike weigh in.  

Don't get started...

[Zac]

USGPRU does rider+bike weigh-in for the 125 riders, but it is only bike weight only for the 250s.

The less horsepower you have, the more weight matters.  Us mere mortals for the most part can't use all the power of a 1000, but on a 125 many riders are using almost all the power almost all the time, so a few pounds matters much more.

There is another way to look at the weight thing.  Lets say I race against Dani Pedrosa.  He probably weighs 100 lbs less than me, his bike weighs about 20 lbs less than mine (I can't remember the exact FIM 250 weight limit) and makes probably 30 more HP.  If we add 120 lbs to his bike and take away 20 HP he will still lap me within a few laps.  Now let's instead add 20 lbs to his bike and take away the 30 HP, but dump 100 lbs of lead shot into his leathers.  I bet I could beat him then, if he could even get out of the pits without falling over.

I know nothing about indycar (don't see the point of running an open wheel car around an oval), but what's the big deal?  It's cool that women are racing.  If you complain that they are lighter you are a loser.  Run less downforce (drag) so you can run a lighter full load or something.  Maybe Dani Pedrosa should go race indycar...

-z.

[tzracer]

F1 weighs car and driver (600 kg).

When I raced karts we were weighed with our kart after qualifying and races.

Maybe we should just come up with a weight and power formula like FUSA Thunderbike. One for supersport, superbike and GP classes.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Maybe we should just come up with a weight and power formula like FUSA Thunderbike. One for supersport, superbike and GP classes.

     I started this emphasizing racing at the top levels as my goal. I don't think it would be too practical to fit this into a normal CCS weekend with the time and manpower limitations we have. I thought this would be an interesting topic to spice up the board a little bit since it was kinda bland as of late.

     I think for those that say weight isn't really an issue, what would be the big deal in adding the weight then? If it doesn't really effect the vehicles performance than it would go un-noticed and the person would still be running where they were before. Certainly a simple way to eliminate any talk of this being a potential advantage, as it's seen by many people currently. :)

[the_weggie_man]

There once was a CCS rider by the name of Ron Petrick who was a rather large individual, I'd say around 230 lbs. He spanked the lightweight classes on a Honda 500 Interceptor. The large one could ride his buns off and has walls full of plaques and a championship or two to prove it.

So, in this case power to weight ratio went right down the sewer. To help prove that point...one weekend he blew his superbike motor in Friday practice, went to a junk yard Friday afternoon and bought a stock motor. Saturday morning he was back on the track and that afternoon was again spanking folks with a box stock, junk yard dog.

He used to do the same thing in CRA races at Brainerd.