I help wrench for a friend this past weekend at Homestead.He came in second in the expert MWSS. I ran over to the tech garage for a post race inspection of the air filter.I notice a air duct fabricated out of aluminium used to channel air on the front calipers to the winner's bike.To me it's a illegal mod to the bike.I grab the tech guy and voiced my opinion that it was illegal.Tech guy gave me a look like what do you want me to do about? After no answers from him, I ran up stairs to Kevin Elliott and told him the situation and again more funny looks.He pulled out the rule book and started to thumb around the pages and said there is a grey area on whether it was legal.I'm not going to get in on what exactly he said cause there was no straight answers.Only that it was up to the rider to file protest and DQ him for using aluminium instead of plastic,carbon fiber or fiber glass which he stated would have been legal.Then it would truely be part of the fairing.Long story short no protest was filed, my buddy figured the so called rider was not going to contest the whole season.Tech guy came over to me at the end of the weekend and said I was in the right and they where going to post a bulletin . .
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg441.imageshack.us%2Fimg441%2F482%2F10004602fk3.jpg&hash=aaf55bf213b61c198d44e6b1ac84fc3c2b97594d)
so that would be legal if it's made out of plastic or whatever the front fender is made out of... right???
Quote from: Court Jester on February 15, 2007, 10:03:26 PM
so that would be legal if it's made out of plastic or whatever the front fender is made out of... right???
Yes that is what I was told,by keven Elliott. Carbon fiber,plastic or fiber glass are ok.Could help out on the 1000 more than the 600 I think.
Wait WTF... you're complaining b/c it was made of alum and not the proper material, which, could weigh less and give it more of an advantage?
Quote from: ecumike on February 15, 2007, 10:28:32 PM
Wait WTF... you're complaining b/c it was made of alum and not the proper material, which, could weigh less and give it more of an advantage?
You guys are right, why have rules.Rules are over rated i guess supersport should have a anything goes policy.As far as I know stock R6 out of the show room doesn't come with a air duct.Yamaha must have sent a technical bulletin for the dealers to fabricate a air duct to the calipers.My mistake.Moderater please delete this post,thanks
whoa buddy......... :ahhh:
Quote from: Court Jester on February 15, 2007, 10:03:26 PM
so that would be legal if it's made out of plastic or whatever the front fender is made out of... right???
If it is considered a fairing then according to the rulebook it must be made out of plastic, cf, or fiberglass.
Quote from: aaronson37 on February 15, 2007, 11:21:28 PM
You guys are right, why have rules.Rules are over rated i guess supersport should have a anything goes policy.As far as I know stock R6 out of the show room doesn't come with a air duct.Yamaha must have sent a technical bulletin for the dealers to fabricate a air duct to the calipers.My mistake.Moderater please delete this post,thanks
yes there are rules for supersport legality. don't confuse what is legal for CCS supersport as what is stock. There are certain things that are not allowed in supersport as spelled out in section 6.1 of the rulebook and the way it was explained to me is , if it doesn't say that it is not allowed then it IS allowed. For example, there is nothing in the SS section that says cooling ducts for brake calipers are not allowed, only that the brake calipers must be original equipment.
I'm with Arnie on this. CCS "supersport" is certainly not stock. There is no weight limit either. So, he can remove the starter, etc. Yamaha R6's come with that. They don't come with Power Commanders, aftermarket exhaust, aftermarket wave rotors, steel braided brake lines, 520 chain and sprockets, full replacement cartridge fork kits, fiberglass bodywork, aftermarket shocks, or $10 a gallon (and up) racing fuel.
Brakes are pretty darn good on modern production bikes from the mid-eighties and up. I don't see any huge performance advantage, but maybe a safety issue? But, if we wanted to, we could make safety issues out of a lot of hot parts.
This is a good thread, though. Two ways: illustrates some of the strangeness of CCS supersport rules and it is an exercise in the value of some modifications.
Quote from: Super Dave on February 16, 2007, 08:12:11 AM
I'm with Arnie on this. CCS "supersport" is certainly not stock. There is no weight limit either. So, he can remove the starter, etc. Yamaha R6's come with that. They don't come with Power Commanders, aftermarket exhaust, aftermarket wave rotors, steel braided brake lines, 520 chain and sprockets, full replacement cartridge fork kits, fiberglass bodywork, aftermarket shocks, or $10 a gallon (and up) racing fuel.
You can do all that? Damn I wish I had more money! :)
I'm in your boat. I don't do all that.
Quote from: aaronson37 on February 15, 2007, 09:38:10 PM
I notice a air duct fabricated out of aluminium used to channel air on the front calipers to the winner's bike.Tech guy came over to me at the end of the weekend and said I was in the right and they where going to post a bulletin . . (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg441.imageshack.us%2Fimg441%2F482%2F10004602fk3.jpg&hash=aaf55bf213b61c198d44e6b1ac84fc3c2b97594d)
Got another pic from an angle that is more from the front?
Did you guys ever talk with the winner about it?
Check out this month's RRW and the article about the guy from Spain who came over here to race AMA'S Superstock last year and HIS big surprises as to what was legal in Superstock. It's an eye opener for sure.
I've read it, but I don't see where they said what was so strange.
The RRW article by Kenny Noyes talks about the AMA Superstock "shock". He had been figuring a little motorwork would have put them into the top 10. He forgot to look at the laptimes, and compare, the times being put down between Superbike and Superstock. They're pretty close together.
It's in the 3rd paragraph on page 74 where he is apologetically explaining the situation he got his team into, having not further researched the predicament he'd put them in, which was nowhere near winning.
I know that's a bit of a threadjack from the CCS issue, but a bit of a parallel.
I guess from the pic above it is hard to tell if there is really a cooling advantage from the bolt-on fin, IE; Is it actually a cooling benefit or is it more of a drag on air? Be interesting to take a laser thermo reading of 2 R6s front discs after a race, one with one w/o the fins. IF you could find racers with comparative breaking styles.... :err:
From the picture, it looks as if the "air duct" is doing more to protect the caliper than direct fresh air in. (thats just what it looks like from the picture and reading the angles of the bends....however, pics that are caliper level from straight ahead could tell a different story)
I guess it could be protecting the caliper . but do they really get damaged?
if it is on an angle to divert air to the rotor behind the caliper it will cool the rotor. cooling the caliper wouldn't be easy to do because aluminum holds heat really well. but cooling the rotor might not be so bad. but to what extent you wouldn't know with out testing it.
and like some one else mentioned has anyone asked the rider what his thoughts were going into this idea?
Funny thing is in WERA it would not be allowed and I think thats what aaronson is getting at. More truer to the Supersport's intent.
Yeah, I agree in many ways.
CCS is pretty liberal on "supersport". WERA used to have production.
I never thought that Supersport meant that you could use a quick shifter. AMA has that. Massive engine management from replacement ECU's. The AMA has that.
But rules are rules.
I guess the only rule that was broken that an additional "fairing" was made out of aluminum rather than some kind of fiberglass materal?
Quote from: aaronson37 on February 15, 2007, 09:38:10 PM...DQ him for using aluminium instead of plastic,carbon fiber or fiber glass which he stated would have been legal
imho the best rider won that race ..... 2nd MWSS Expert aint too shabby either. I wish I could be that shabby someday.
I can't see taking away someone's hard earned victory over something like this.
I can understand if ALL air-ducts were illegal, but the material of them, a material with no benefit what so ever?
I remember when my bike's steering head busted apart and we welded it back together....then we were visited by a competitor & his crew (rule book in hand) on their way to find Elliott, yelling about my bike being illegal....I had "added metal to the frame". After all of the laughter errupted from the dozen-or-so people standing around, they 'dropped' the "protest" idea and walked back to their pits.
Unbelievable. I lost all competitor-respect for that rider and his crew (also racers) that day.
More importantly though, the squared and sharp edges of that aluminum bracket looks pretty obtuse. I wouldn't want to be slammed by it in a crash or even a hard contact bump.
If that aluminum bracket would be rulebooked in as 'legal', would a thicker/stiffer/more-dangerous peice of aluminum also be legal. Would a (really dangerous) steel scoop then be legal? What if it rattled loose, and a SHARP & heavy steel scoop bounced down the track into an oncomming rider's neck at a buck-fifty?
Rounded metal is one thing, but that metal scoop on a racebike doesn't look like a good idea to me.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on February 18, 2007, 02:53:27 PM
I remember when my bike's steering head busted apart and we welded it back together....then we were visited by a competitor & his crew (rule book in hand) on their way to find Elliott, yelling about my bike being illegal....I had "added metal to the frame". After all of the laughter errupted from the dozen-or-so people standing around, they 'dropped' the "protest" idea and walked back to their pits.
Unbelievable. I lost all competitor-respect for that rider and his crew (also racers) that day.
LOL! That's rich! Material added.... ROFLMAO!
Quote from: Speedballer347 on February 18, 2007, 02:53:27 PM
More importantly though, the squared and sharp edges of that aluminum bracket looks pretty obtuse. I wouldn't want to be slammed by it in a crash or even a hard contact bump.
If that aluminum bracket would be rulebooked in as 'legal', would a thicker/stiffer/more-dangerous peice of aluminum also be legal. Would steel then be legal? What if it rattled loose, and a peice of corner'ed-steel bounced down the track into an oncomming rider's neck at a buck-fifty?
Rounded metal is one thing, but cornered metal on a racebike doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
+1
You racing this year?
Quote from: r1owner on February 18, 2007, 03:03:41 PM
LOL! That's rich! Material added.... ROFLMAO!
I'll tell ya who it was when I see you .... you're gonna poop :lmao:
We are going to campaign two bikes under our endurance pit :cheers:
Todd Bone'shaker' & Tim are riding my bike. Kenny 9-fingers (cause he left a finger at Putnam :spank: ) and DaniJaja (Wolf44) are riding Ken's SV.
CCS's LWss rules are crazy. Just look at Ed's SV. Carbon fiber subframe, ram air, total loss charging system. Not that I would ever be as fast as him, it would be nice to try on equal equipment. That being said, Ed did build his bike within the rules. :cheers:
Quote from: Speedballer347 on February 18, 2007, 02:53:27 PM
imho the best rider won that race ..... I can't see taking away someone's hard earned victory over something like this.
+1... protest :wtf: go faster next time!
That is because Kevin will make up the rules, change them, and give special treatment as he sees fit. Kinda sounds like how Iraq was. Even change final results when he feels the need after its been posted (with no protest filed).
I'm really glad I read this. Now I have the secret to club racing domination.
I'm building some aluminum brake ducts, which will make me so fast that I'll win everything, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. :jerkoff:
Ed has three different SVs so you are talking about the SB not SS machine.
I'd put my money on Ed on equal equipment..............
+1
And probably not equal equipment even.
While I understand that little things add up and it's all about hundredths/thousandths of a second savings which can be repeated, I don't really see this as something that can change the result of a race...
What was the margin of the win? hundredths/thousandths of a second? Sure, it may have come into play...
Then again, it may not have... Many brakes need heat to function correctly. Cold brakes on those bikes will not bite the way they should. Pop on a pair of EBC-HH-Kit pads and try to stop when they're cold. FORGET IT!
CCS supersport rules have remained virtually unchanged for a number of years now. CCS does not have glossary of definitions which makes it seem vague to WERA racers.
Just read the rulebook, you should take any advantage the rules allow. Do not handicap yourself by "reading in" rules that aren't there. If you don't understand the rulebook or you can't afford the modifications... well that's not your competition's fault. Racing is not simple, easy or free- so don't plan on winning races on "technicalities"
it was actually heavy wt supersport (had won GTU and mwss earlier :biggrin:), and yea, after coming through some riders finished a very close 2nd behind another r6. Tried to get around a few times, then said "hey, he's not gonna be here all year so i dont HAVE to win this race".. he got held up by some lappers and that closed the gap to make it very close at the line.
Aaron brought it to my attention, but it was not worth me making a fuss over. THe better rider for that race won.. Now, had he had slicks or somethin that is clear cut rule violation i don't think i would have hesitated to bust out the rule book. The rider was a cool dude up from Guatemala that runs Guatemalan national series. Lots of fast riders from South American countries.
Thanks for the concern Aaron, ya got my back. :biggrin:
Nice job, Greg! Was waiting for you to chime in...
Quote from: MELK-MAN on February 20, 2007, 09:19:32 PM
..... but it was not worth me making a fuss over. THe better rider for that race won.. Now, had he had slicks or somethin that is clear cut rule violation i don't think i would have hesitated to bust out the rule book.
:thumb:
Congrates on the podiums 8)
Quote from: weggieman on February 19, 2007, 07:19:42 PM
Ed has three different SVs so you are talking about the SB not SS machine.
I'd put my money on Ed on equal equipment..............
Ed's SS bike has ram air and a fiberglass gas tank I'm sure. Pretty sure about the other stuff, too. CCS rules do not say you can't duct air to the airbox. It' just says you must retain the stock airbox and stock inlet size. You can also run an other than stock subframe.
Quote from: gqnugget on February 19, 2007, 07:02:36 PM
That is because Kevin will make up the rules, change them, and give special treatment as he sees fit. Kinda sounds like how Iraq was. Even change final results when he feels the need after its been posted (with no protest filed).
gqnugget ,
We have never changed the results without a protest (or appeal) being filed, and we certainly do not change the rules on a whim.
Please give me a specific instance where we changed a written rule on a whim.
As already mentioned, per the rule book, the only thing wrong with his additions was the material he made them from. Maybe it's nitpicking, maybe not, but you have to go by the rules and that was the only thing specifically prohibited.
On the downside to all this, before we "ban" this type of duct work, would this affect aftermarket fenders that change the airflow to brakes or radiators? If you have input. e-mail me and let me know what you think.
The rulebook says you can use an aftermarket air filter but you can't modify it. (LWSS) I modified my stock air filter and was DQ'd. It didn't say I couldn't do it. :cheers:
WOW, what a topic. I haven't paid that much attention to the SS rules to this point, so what I am reading here is news to me. I'm very surprised by a lot of this. If what Kevin Clark posted is accurate about Mr. Keys bike and this is acceptable, why was Rebecca Caudle disqualified from the LWSS race at Topeka in June 2006 because the stock snorkle was missing off her bike? Seems like this should be legal based on what I'm reading here.
I doubt that CCS is going to re-write their rulebook, but just in case they are considering it, my vote would be for their SS rules to mirror the other organizations and allow only specified modifications and nothing more.
Because Ed has a stock sized snorkle on his airbox, but he also has ram air tubes routing air to a pan on top of the airbox. This pressurizes the air going into the airbox.
Jack, Kevin this is the rule that sounds like effects both of the situations you mention.
6.1.2.D. Original equipment air box must remain as produced. Air filters must
be used but may be Aftermarket units. Aftermarket air filters are
restricted to units available via normal commercial channels and
designed for that specific model machine. Aftermarket air filter units
that replace part of the OEM. airbox are required to maintain the
original size and number of air inlet openings as the stock unit.
If you remove the snorkel you have increased the size of the opening and on modding the stock filter sounds like making the stock air box opening bigger(air filter is part of the air box on 1st gen SV)
Belive it or not we can all learn something from Nascar. I was watching one of those "behind the scenes" type shows where they were developing and testing cars. Everyone knows how strict nascar rules are. I mean, they even come out with templates to make sure the roof and windshield angles are correct. But the thing that was said and what stuck with me was when the crew chief said,"It's not whats in the rule book, it's whats not in the rule book." Therefore if there is no specific mention about an item or modification it is allowed. Nascar crews thrive by working in the "grey area" and it is these small things that allow them to add up to something useful.
Now it can be debated whether or not this is a usable or performance oriented mod but if it is not stated in the rulebook then it is allowed. If he was ingenious enough to come up with the idea then good for him.
But this also brings up the subject of tech inspection. Someone said they would hate to catch something like this in the neck at 150 mph. Something like this should be safety wired and should have been noted by a tech inspector. It is not their duty to inspect for the classes you enter but they need to keep an eye on safety. And if it slips through, then the rider should not be penalized on the backside. But tech inspectors need to be more thorough then perhaps they have previously been. I got burned since a tech inspector missed the rubber drain plug missing from my lower fairing. Then, unbenounced to me, a starter catches it at the last moment and pulls me off the front row during a start. I didn't think it was fair for that to happen to me since I was passed through tech inspection. I can understand the problem of having a blown motor leak oil through the bellypan but I was on the front row and was passed by tech insopection. If he didn't catch it then why should I be penalized?But that is sorta a different story and was last year anyway.
The rider used the grey area to his advantage. He didn't increase his rotor diameter or radiator capacity. All he did was direct more air at it using a little homemade fabrication. Was there a measureable performance gain? Who knows, but it is sure easy to say yes when you're the one in second place.
The problem with the grey areas is that it 's left up to the tech guys to make the final call. What's ok at one track may not be at another, or it may even change from rider to rider based on which tech official they visit. The inconsistency causes confusion.
Well, standard tech inspection does not constitute eligibility for a class. One can usually expect that it is a reasonable safety inspection, but it still does not merit that everything is safe.
There are hot spots and sharp edges all over that could be exposed all over a bike.
Back to the photo at hand...
If it's a fairing, it has to be fiberglass? But what if it's a heat shield or a heat sink? I don't read anything that says it can't be aluminum.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on February 22, 2007, 11:19:33 PM
Jack, Kevin this is the rule that sounds like effects both of the situations you mention.
"Aftermarket" air filter units that replace part of the OEM airbox are required to maintain the original size and number of air inlet openings as the stock unit.
Does it say "stock" air filters are required to maintain.......? No, it says "aftermarket" I had a stock one. The rulebook does not say I can't do it. The air filter as part of the airbox is a judgment call in my book. If you order a "airbox" from Suzuki, it won't come with a filter.
And I'm not mad about if you are wondering. :ass: I was DQ'd in my first race as an expert. I din't think I had any chance of a top 3 let alone win the damn thing. :cheers:
There was no protest filed and if there was, it would have showed no advantage gained. That is why the rider decided not to follow up. If there had been a protest, it would have been denied! "BS" protests like this do nothing but waste everyones time, as do many law suits filed these days! Usually the ones who file these types of protests are unable to win anyother way and I do all I can to keep that from happening :kicknuts:.
HD
Thank you for reality, Henry. I think you have a good gig going on down there. :cheers:
Quote from: onedwn5up on February 23, 2007, 04:34:43 PM
I got burned since a tech inspector missed the rubber drain plug missing from my lower fairing. Then, unbenounced to me, a starter catches it at the last moment and pulls me off the front row during a start. I didn't think it was fair for that to happen to me since I was passed through tech inspection. I can understand the problem of having a blown motor leak oil through the bellypan but I was on the front row and was passed by tech insopection. If he didn't catch it then why should I be penalized? was last year anyway.
YOU are the one responsible for the mechanical and safety issues on your motorcycle,
NOT the tech inspector. Tech inspection is there to hopefully catch the mistakes of idiots, newcomers, and guys who put their bikes together while seriously sleep deprived. (I've been all three) Try teching several hundred bikes in an hour, all while people are running up and asking questions, distracting you as you work. You won't catch everything either.
IMO, to blame a tech inspector for missing your mistake, or to blame a grid marshal for catching your mistake, is simply a way to avoid accepting responsibility for your own actions. This attitude of pushing off your responsibility on others, taken to it's illogical extreme, is what has lawyers suing motorcycle manufacturers for building "Inherently Dangerous Vehicles."