Re: VOTE!

[smoke]

Why KC?

No one is mad or fussing...  we all just see things form a diff view point.  and we all have voiced our opions with out any profanity or yelling.

Just becasue I have a diff view point from SD does not mean anything  but we agree to disagree and move on. such how life should be

[Super Dave]

Kevin, it's not a bad thread.  It's not like a WERA one with stuff flying off the walls.

Welfare.  

The farm system gets a lot.  Hard for me to answer that.  We need food and we need the ability to have people there all the time making food...and an excess of it.  If you don't...well, prices can go through the roof and you don't have food.

Then what?

My father grew up on a farm in Nebraska.  When he came back from his service in the Korean War, they finally had electricty.

Anyway, the reality of his life was there were actually times when they didn't have money or food.  He went to bed hungry, for real.

My kids say they're hungry because they came off the sugar rush of chocolate chip whaffles...

Anyway, welfare needs to exist in some form.

My sister and myself are adopted.  My sister was born with a bit a brain damage.  Our family doctor knew my mother well...she was a nurse...and he recommended that my mother NOT adopt her.  My mom did.  My sister is higher functioning, but she's not like you and I.  

If all of my family and I died, well, she doesn't understand money.  She enjoys TV, she cleans up after herself, she reads almost anything and really likes that.  But try finding job for her.  Very, very hard.  She can't drive, but my mom tried to teach her.  

However, if you are an able bodied person...

Back to the farm...

My father was born in 1933.  Pretty rough time.

Pictures of my father on the farm when he was young...well, you see open fields.  No trees.  Really, Nebraska didn't have any trees around.  The Dust Bowl era hit and made a big mess.  FDR put people to work.  They went out and built "shelter belts" in the farmlands to keep the prevailing winds from destroying the topsoil.  That work gave people a sense of value and worth.  Put food in their bellies.  Kept families together.

Now...  

Well, I don't have cable, but I'd bet that most government housing does.  Mel, like you said, you were taught to work for stuff.  Same thing for most people;  they should work for stuff.  Got to break the cycle of dependence on programs.  Yes, there are people that need it...that's a moral issue isn't it?  And there are people that milk it...that's immoral.

[251am]

  The only other industrialized nation, considered to be 1st world on the planet, besides the US, who does not have nationalized health care? South Africa. Why would we want to be in the same boat as South Africans whose motives for refusing their impoverished healthcare are pretty transparent?

  It's a good thread. It is a good thread as we can discuss this here in our country w/o fear of retaliation or persecution. Well, actually retaliation is pretty common. Anyway, thanks for your service KC. The next four years with George not having to worry about polls or re-election will be interesting.

[Super Dave]

 The only other industrialized nation, considered to be 1st world on the planet, besides the US, who does not have nationalized health care? South Africa. Why would we want to be in the same boat as South Africans whose motives for refusing their impoverished healthcare are pretty transparent?

I'm not sure if comparing health care systems of the US and SA is relevant to how other things work inside a country.  Additionally, hasn't aparteid been gone for years?

If everything is so bad here...you'd think that people would stay in their country then, wouldn't you, rather than come here?

Mexico has socialized medicine coverage.  However, I believe that more people are coming to the US rather than US citizens going to Mexico.

[smoke]

Kevin, it's not a bad thread.  It's not like a WERA one with stuff flying off the walls.

Welfare.  

The farm system gets a lot.  Hard for me to answer that.  We need food and we need the ability to have people there all the time making food...and an excess of it.  If you don't...well, prices can go through the roof and you don't have food.

Then what?

My father grew up on a farm in Nebraska.  When he came back from his service in the Korean War, they finally had electricty.

Anyway, the reality of his life was there were actually times when they didn't have money or food.  He went to bed hungry, for real.

My kids say they're hungry because they came off the sugar rush of chocolate chip whaffles...

Anyway, welfare needs to exist in some form.

My sister and myself are adopted.  My sister was born with a bit a brain damage.  Our family doctor knew my mother well...she was a nurse...and he recommended that my mother NOT adopt her.  My mom did.  My sister is higher functioning, but she's not like you and I.  

If all of my family and I died, well, she doesn't understand money.  She enjoys TV, she cleans up after herself, she reads almost anything and really likes that.  But try finding job for her.  Very, very hard.  She can't drive, but my mom tried to teach her.  

However, if you are an able bodied person...

Back to the farm...

My father was born in 1933.  Pretty rough time.

Pictures of my father on the farm when he was young...well, you see open fields.  No trees.  Really, Nebraska didn't have any trees around.  The Dust Bowl era hit and made a big mess.  FDR put people to work.  They went out and built "shelter belts" in the farmlands to keep the prevailing winds from destroying the topsoil.  That work gave people a sense of value and worth.  Put food in their bellies.  Kept families together.

Now...  

Well, I don't have cable, but I'd bet that most government housing does.  Mel, like you said, you were taught to work for stuff.  Same thing for most people;  they should work for stuff.  Got to break the cycle of dependence on programs.  Yes, there are people that need it...that's a moral issue isn't it?  And there are people that milk it...that's immoral.

SD---  I told you that night that we had a lot in comman.

To be truthfull I could have been one of those welfare babies but Thank god for my MOM! she refused to get on it.  When I was younger we were poor as dirt but happy becasue we are together. there were times when we had no food, hand me down cloths and Xmas gifts were not given . she worked so hard to do for my brother and I first.  WHen she took a job with the gov thats when our lives changed.  Sitting here typeing this made me think about how far I've come and grew up.  I got my work ethic from her .MOMs rule!


Yes SD I do agree there are people who need it.  

[Ryan125]

I MUST BE STUPID BECAUSE I THOUGHT THIS WAS A MOTORCYCLE WEB SITE. ???

[Super Dave]

Mel, I think it's because we look so similar...

Did I tell you that Ike and I were switching identies at the last Blackhawk...again, people have a hard time telling us apart.   ;D  LOL!

I though we thought a lot alike anyway.

The best way isn't always the easiest way.  As with about everything, right?  Yeah, I can come up with some things that it's easier to do one way, but it usually requires money or something...so...

Anyway, here we are...

We're buying drugs from Canada.  Where do those come from?  Well, companies.  And from Canada.  Recently, I heard that Canadian pharmacies were going to limit outside purchases of drugs.  So, that's going to dry up.  

Why are US prices high?  Well, back to a list of things.  I'm sure the drug store and the pharmasist have to have liability insurance.  So did the builder of the building.  So did the lady that drove her car to the drug store to buy some shoe inserts.  Sadly, the insert maker couldn't afford to compete against the manufacture of similar inserts that saw fit to move their manufacturing overseas where the costs weren't so high.

Socialised medicine...how's that going to pay a doctor that spends hundreds of thousands on his education?  Might not even be able to pay his loans back after he gets a bill for liability insurance.  Socialized medicine certainly isn't going to pay MORE to providers.  

I was lucky when I had to have my hand rebroken and pinned back together that my fathers insurance covered it.  The guy was good.  Wasn't cheap, but my hand is way better.  You think socialized medicine would have sent me to a sports doctor?  And then one that specialized in hands?  

Anyone been to an emergency room?  Ever feel like it was registration for CCS races?  

It is my opinion that the US people in the health care network are the best anyone has to offer.  We have foreigners here to learn from the best.  I think it has deteriorated, but I would say that it has come as a result of increasing pressures from Medicade, Medicare, etc.  

Welfare...back to that.

And back to my sister.  

Would I expect here to go on welfare...not that she's know how to do it anyway...I've always had the mind that should that opportunity come up, she'd probably live with me and my family, my aunt or someone.  Sometimes help comes from other places too.  Seems like there have been lots of celebrated cases of siamese twins being separated.  Seems like we had the services available here in the US.  I'm sure those were paid for with private funds and through donations...certainly didn't come from socialized systems of medical networks of the resident's country.

[Super Dave]

I MUST BE STUPID BECAUSE I THOUGHT THIS WAS A MOTORCYCLE WEB SITE. ???

LOL, yeah, but were still scholars and patriots too, right?

We're just really fast.

[VPFL]

Been there done that!  But the key here is I don't concern my self with them or how they live there life.  I don't care what they have or don't have.  I've been tought that if I want something I have to work for it.

The welfare system does not work? Why... Its a family thing... Kids have been born it seeing how the system works. it works fine for there parents so it will be fine for them.  Yes there are other programs that are there to help people get off welfarebut they don't work either.  There is no true insentive for people to get off welfare.  Oh...  The newest people on welfare were not born in to it.  They lost there jobs and had no other options.

To mix Health care with welfare was just goofy.

When my tax dollars go into a broken system, it does concern me and I'm surprised it doesn't concern you. Another classic 'broken' system that does not work Social Security. This is a system that has seen its day and should be slowly terminated. It will never happen but this is how I feel. I take issue with government taking money from my pocket to take care of me in any respect.

Why dont we get a system that gives Americans the choice to pay into or not pay into. Doctors can choose to participate in the program or not...(I know why this wont work and so does every person that pushs for this type of health care system)

My brother said to me the other day...why is it that banks are willing to give money to people who already have money. But those of us that really need it and dont have it, cant get it. (yeah he loves Nader). I said to him simply- You build equity in yourself and a bank will give you money. This is something that has taken me 40+ years to do. It  was not always an easy path- and thank god it was not- for all of the hard times made me stronger and wiser.

I love being goofy ;D but not when it comes to money and politics.  8)

[Super Dave]

Welfare...let's go back to that.

Are the newest recently jobless?  Probably more than jobless.

Anyone got any figures?

How about welfare as it relates to the people that have been in it the longest?

If I had problems, I could probably find a few friends or family that would help me out.  Not the choice for everyone, but...

[r1owner]

I take issue with government taking money from my pocket to take care of me in any respect.

Man, are you sure.  Maybe we shouldn't collect taxes for the police and firefighters then.  What about FEMA?  What about all the subsidies the gov't gives to farmers.  That is in effect "taking" care of you.

I'm not neccesarily arguing for gov't healthcare.

I was diagnosed with bladder cancer almost two years ago.  Two operations and five months of chemotherapy later I seem to be OK now.  Thank God I happen to have health coverage.

If I did not, what would've happened?  I think I probably would not have went in to see anyone until I was in pain.  By then it would have been way too late (I still may have been too late, only time will tell).

I guess if I had no health care coverage and my hand was broken real bad, I'd rather have it fixed (maybe not a renowned doctor), than do it myself.

A lot of people that don't have healthcare coverage end up going to the ER when it is too late anyway.  What if they had a simple illness that could have been treated months earlier for 50 bucks.  Now that they waited and are in the ER, it costs the hospital 10's of thousands.

Since we're arguing that lawsuits cost so much and increase premiums, why does it cost so much to become a doctor?  Why is college so expensive?  Maybe if we go that far back and decrease the costs there, doctors wouldn't have to charge so much to pay off those large loans.

[Super Dave]

If I did not, what would've happened?  I think I probably would not have went in to see anyone until I was in pain.  By then it would have been way too late (I still may have been too late, only time will tell).

Which came first?

Before our time, you went to the doctor when you were sick.

Now, we wait until it's bad because we know it's going to cost more.

Why does it cost more?  Litgation, lawsuits, the partial socialization of medicine.  Any arguments?

Gov't payment of Medicare and Medicaid bills is slow, as I understand it.  And it has to be discounted.  So, if you're a paying customer, you have to subsidize it...just like we pay more in the US for drugs 'cause some countries won't abide by patents or they require lower costs...to what end?  Our development of new products gets undercut by copycats and price controls.  

If you have a family to feed, why be in the medicine business?

Remember, you probably work for a business in some kind of field.  You could go back to the barter system if you'd like.