How many Dunlops....

[Eric Kelcher]

AMA series dominated by Dunlop tires on mainly car courses (drag and ovals).heavy production based bikes
MotoGP series dominated by Michelin on motorcycle courses (roadcourses). light race only bikes

I think the weight of the machines is the biggest issue with course design as second ad tire construction methods/manufacturerers being a distant third or even further back.

[tshowrench]

Well, its a good thing that there were no tire failures in F1 this past weekend... Oh wait... 3 in practice and 1 in the race...

Thats at F1...

Its where they develop new technology that trickles down to us.. F1, AMA and MGP.. Thats where the ultra cutting edge stuff is found. Remember when radial mount brakes and slipper clutches were GP only?

Tire technology trickles down too... It takes time, and it takes some failures to get there.

[cornercamping]

Tire technology trickles down too... It takes time, and it takes some failures to get there.

Right, but what is acceptable and what is not?  Isn't there machinery to emulate tire wear and testing as opposed to putting it on a bike?  Can't a machine put a tire thru the same beating that a pro level rider will put to it?  Imagine a tire as a heart monitor.  Your life depends on it's ability to function correctly.  Do you think that they test heart monitors this way?  It might not be a good example, but I think you get what I'm saying.  Regardless, its a dangerous scenerio either way.  I personally feel that tire manufacturers need test tires to extreme limits regardless of the use and if a problem arises, time after time, fix it first, prove it's fixed, then release the production version.  Of course, technology has to evolve, but who's responsible for the injured people laying in a hospital bed?  Someone has to be.   Imagine being in the place of one of these pro riders that ends up in the hospital bed due to a tire failure.  What would you do?  Continue using the tire knowing that it could happen again at any time?  Would you tell your team I'm not running on those again?  Quit racing?  Same thing goes for anything else.  What about leathers.  If you bought brand X leathers, and you went down and they didn't protect you, are you going to buy the same brand leathers again?  Either way, you are using something for it's functionality.  If it's not functioning properly as it's supposed to, why are you still using it?

[cornercamping]

Let me clarify my point to this whole thread, and make it completely manufactuer bias.

1. You buy a tire, put it on your bike and race with it.
2. You end up in a hospital.
3. You find out that the reason your in the hospital is your tire failed.
4. The manufacturer of the tire explains that they aren't sure why the tire failed, and they are looking into it, or the explanation is that your riding capabilities exceed the capability of the tire.

What would you do about this situation?  Do you accept their explanation as valid? How do you repsond to their explanation?

[fourandsix]

It would be Impossible for a machine to simulate a tire load on the track , riders are too different.Even if they were on identical setups. Also chassis and suspension set up plays a big role in tire temps how do you control that? The problem today is that everyone wants to place blame , unfortunate things happen , sometimes it just that. I'm sure the Dunlop People are not very happy right now and feel for Hacking.

[cornercamping]

again, the ONLY reason I'm pointing at Dunlop is because they are the "preferred tire" of the AMA teams, and since they are the leader in that org., it is their responsibility to be in the lead of development. æTo quote Matt Mladin:

We were told in a meeting with Dunlop, the day before the test started, that they essentially assured us (the riders) there wasn't going to be any trouble with the tyres of the same sort we have had in the past, with tyre deflation etc, said Mladin.


Unfortunately there was one such incident on the second day of the test and as I've said many times, the bikes and the speed of the new 1000cc motorbikes has gotten beyond what this race track is capable of and the tyres cannot handle the abuse that they are given around here.


The point that must be made and I've said before, Dunlop cannot be held totally responsible for what is happening. Any tyre manufacturer that would come here and see what goes on with tyres would be pulling their hair out with trying to develop tyres for this track. They (Dunlop) cannot be held responsible, we have to hold someone responsible at other tracks and Dunlop may be partly to blame there, but here the AMA need to look at what's going on and the performance of the motorcycle.


The bikes have increased in performance so much in the past five years that it is becoming frightening. The new Honda did essentially 310kph (190mph) on the 31 deg. banking and with all of the funny things that happen on the banking, the G forces are unbelievable.


If something is not done about it, I certainly won't be racing in the 200 under the circumstances we are at, at the moment. I would rather put a set of tyres on a 600 Supersport and race that, rather than a 200+hp Superbike as no one can guarantee our safety when it comes to tyres here. Motorcycle racing is full of inherent dangers and things that go wrong, but it has come to a point where there are no guarantees that you'll come around the next lap, even if you don't do anything wrong and I think that's a risk not worth taking.


Tyre wear is also not the issue or the reason why for the failures. Ben (Spies) had a tyre fail after about four or five laps and then (Jason) DiSalvo had one let go after about ten laps on a 1000cc Superstock bike and we've got to do 20 laps on a tyre in the 200 race.


The problem Dunlop is facing is that they just don't know why it's happening. They think they've got a handle on why it happened and then they've got another failure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising Dunlop for not working on the problem as I know that they've worked day and night on this. I can't fault them for the amount of work and time they've put in over the past three months, it's been incredible. The bottom line is that the speeds and the forces generated on the banking, I don't think can be replicated in a closed testing environment and that makes it hard. The banking does have what feels like very sharp holes, what would feel like stutter bumps on a motocross bike, but at 270kph, so is this additional load causing the tyre to fracture. That's the thing at the moment, we just don't know.


This is a big problem and it needs to be addressed now. What is going to happen in a few years time when the manufacturers start to develop 240hp bikes? Just six years ago we had 155hp and now we have just over 200. One day it has to come to a point where it seriously needs to be addressed.


We know that Daytona is the worst track on the calendar as far as safety goes, but getting it taken off the calendar wonêt happen next year, so something has to be done quickly. I think the series has outgrown Daytona. Even the 600cc Supersport bikes are doing 270kph (170mph) on the banking.


We're going to speeds with these 1000cc bikes of over 320kph after they've been in the draft and that's crazy as you are surrounded by a concrete wall. So far the recent incidents have been during practice, but what will happen if a tyre fails during the race when there's a five-bike train happening and there are five riders on the track at 270ks and a field of bikes following them. You can imagine it's not going to be good.


We met the AMA officials late on Wednesday afternoon to discuss ways of fixing it so that the race will happen next year with less than three months before the race, a lot of things will need to be sorted out.

[cornercamping]

It would be Impossible for a machine to simulate a tire load on the track , riders are too different.Even if they were on identical setups. Also chassis and suspension set up plays a big role in tire temps how do you control that? The problem today is that everyone wants to place blame , unfortunate things happen , sometimes it just that. I'm sure the Dunlop People are not very happy right now and feel for Hacking.

Alright, but when does the time come when they (whomever it has to be) say enough is enough?  Bikes are only getting faster and faster.  When and who calls it as it is sadly enough? What is going to take, a burial?  If that's the case, who's going to be the fall guy when it happens?  One day an incident will evolve, and it could be anyone, even a street rider.

[cornercamping]

Here's the kicker though:

Press Release Issued By Mat Mladin Motorsports  (December 11, 2003)

"The problem Dunlop is facing is that they just don't know why it's happening. They think they've got a handle on why it happened and then they've got another failure."

Look at the date on that press release.   Do they know yet?

[boo181]

so what, they should give up on trying to make better tyres? that's the point of the tests. and to say that motogp tyres don't fail is just dumb. brigestone had a some pritty major ones resently. and if i'm not mistaken haking crashed in superstock. witch run slicks, not dots. failures are bad, no arguing that. but tyres, and the matieral in tyres, are made by people, and as everyone knows mistakes happen and will continue to forever. also if any of the veriables that go into making tyres, such as compound, temp, humidity, etc. are differant or not quite perfect it could and will affect the performance of a tyre. lets face it, all of us who get on the track have to know the risk involved, and if you can't accept them than you shouldn't be out there. and i for one wish i could ride to the point in witch i could cause a tyre to fail.

[Super Dave]

I agree with you Dave...

However Jim's statement:

"Do you race on Dunlops? If not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case."

... was unconstructive in this conversation and was belittling and inciteful.

Dawn

But this statement started it all and was unconstructive, belittleing and inciteful.

How many Dunlops have to blow up before they get ruled as "non adequate" equipment in the AMA

Sorry, Dan...

Really though it is.  

Certainly any Dunlop rider may feel pressure from some about these issues.  Certainly Dunlop feels it internally.  

The internet does have a tendancy to allow lots of input.  Certainly input is allowed, but someone that is at a different level of racing in cars doesn't have input into what the Shoemakers do.  

I fully understand Jim's answer.  

I have people that come to my schools with bikes that are not prepared even for race day.  Then, when they don't accomplish something, it's my fault.

There are many manufacturers of tires out there that support AMA road racing.  Certainly, Dunlop is one of them.  Racers ride at full tilt.  Set ups are not optimized and tire wear will occur.  Additionally, other factors based on production qualities in suspension, chassis, tires, chain, etc. and play a part.  The tire is the last contact.  AND the rider still has to ride within certain perameters of traction to keep the bike upright.  

So, to call out Dunlops as non-adequate...

Again, I ride Michelin's.  I have good friends there.  Additionally, I've known Jim Allen for quite a time myself.  If you knew the people at Dunlop as your friends and collegues for quite a while, the statements would be rather personal...especially when voiced by someone that doesn't race in that competition category.

How long should a tire last?  How good should it be?

Well, they get better.  I grew up racing on Dunlop 591's.  Started with a Dunlop 591 prototype and a 391 front, if you want to know what exactly.

Over the years, tires and chassis fluctuate.  Tires get better, they load the chassis differently.  Then the chassis catchs up, the tire can't keep up.  It's a give and take.  There is still not tire that gives traction everywhere all the time.  

Car tires are "relatively" simple.  A car loads a tire a certain way.  There are equasions that can tell you how the side wall will deflect, etc.  

Motorcycle tires...well, that's art and magic.  Like Jim said, there is so much happening.  You can't really know exactly if it will be better.  I've ridden on Michelins some time ago that were supposed to be better than the current tires.  They were good.  They were refered to as the "A" tire.  We got the "B" tire, and we found it to be much better.  Reality was that the asphalt here was different than the asphalt where the tire was developed.

As for a tire working and failing...

If it was a perfect world, for your endurance race at Grattan, you'd be able to run a soft front and rear tire that would last the whole distance.  Doesn't work that way though.  There IS going to be a life to a tire.  I race on DOT's...I like the longevity that I get out of the Michelin's, but I can only expect the tire to do so many full out laps.  After that, there IS less traction.  

With a 170HP bike, will any tire give decent traction?  You open the throttle too much and the thing is either wheeling or spinning.  At what point can failure be expected?  No one wants it to happen, but it can.  To think otherwise is kind of ridiculous.

Life is full of risk.  Getting up in the morning and slipping in the shower.  Watched someone run through a stop sign, miss me and wipe out a mini van three hours ago rolling the thing over.  Certainly, we do everything we can do try to reduce risk, but it can never be eliminated, right?

Jim Allen didn't want or expect this to happen.  To say that his tires are "non-adequate"...that's belittleing and inciteful.

[Jeff]

Here's another question as well.

How often do you see this in club-level racing?  You don't.  Yes, there are tire failures here and there, but many can be traced back to other problems (clearance due to gearing, flat-spot rim, etc).  

When Jeff Kufalk goes out and disintegrates a D208-GPa on his cbr600rr with ~110 at the rear wheel, then, I'll consider saying Dunlops are sh1t.

Until then....

[spyderchick]

Jeff who?   :o :P ;) ;D