VIRamature second wave starts?

[BC61]

This was my first weekend with CCS at VIR and for the most part it was enjoyable. I did have a concern about the length of time between the 1st amature and 2nd amature wave start. I understand the safety reasons for multiple wave starts and don't have any issues with two wave starts only the gap between them. This 15+ second delay put all 2nd wave riders at a clear disadvantage. Second wave starts are to protect the first wave riders from getting run over if there is a problem on the grid not if they have a problem in turn one.

I spoke with David Murray who I was told was the race director for the weekend. He was very receptive and was aware that it was a bit of an issue and they were looking into revising thier start procedure for that track.

As Kevin Elliot said in another thread, this is sportsman racing, everyone should have a chance to win.
I do not have any issues with thier gridding procedures only that they give the second wave folks a chance. It was proven in the middle weight SB race that a stop and go penalty from the first wave was less of a penalty than starting in the second wave.

Again as I said David was receptive to my concerns and I encourage others to make themselves heard if they feel stongly that this is an issue.

Bill Conger  #261

[amaner]

i agree with your "complaint."  the wait between waves at summit is MUCH shorter, allowing folks in the 2nd wave a better chance at the lovely plastic trophies.

[THE_D.O.C.]

here we go. i agree it should be scored as two different races. it isn't fair, or neccessary. i've seen wera shorten the gaps and put all the riders together fairly for five years. {without ever a problem} but bet your a@@ that ccs won't do it {because that's the way wera does}

[bfkidd]

I don't know doc. It kinda freaks me out when WERA throws the flag for the experts and immediately throw the flag for the amatuers. Since they are two seperate races I don't understand why they just don't wait so the lead amatuers aren't late breaking halfway through the experts.

Seems like both orgs should adopt the other's policy on mixed verse non mixed races. So throw the flag quick for an all amatuer race, but wait a bit for one that's combined.

[BC61]

Large wave gaps between Expert - Amature races are fine. The gaps between Am-Am waves was as big as the Ex- Am split. Not much of a fair chance from the second wave. As I said before it was less of a penalty to do a stop and go from the first wave than it was to start from the second wave.

[r6_philly]

so technically you are penalized by the system because you paid later.

I really don't feel that everyone has a chance at winning. Because even if you registered 2 weeks in advance, you will still get stuffed in 2nd wave.

If the 2 wave starts are to be counted as one race, then maybe the gridding shouldn't be so arbituary.

[THE_D.O.C.]

I don't know doc. It kinda freaks me out when WERA throws the flag for the experts and immediately throw the flag for the amatuers.

sounds to me like you are getting out braked by amateurs chuck! tisk tisk, and on the other thread you said you were faster than me? whatever.

[bfkidd]

No, I don't race WERA so it's not me that is getting out braked. I've been hanging around the top five the last few months so I'm doing just fine.

[BC61]

 r6_philly, I don't want to drag in the gridding procedure it has been beat to death. It's thier game and I accept the way they grid.

However I don't think there should be more than a 2 second delay between waves unless there is a safety issue with the first wave (example bike stalls on grid). If that is the case then the first wave should be red flagged and a total restart. The starters job is to ensure that a race starts safely(on the grid, not through turn one) and that everyone has a fair start. They should not play in the out come of the race.

Starting from the second wave is a disadvantage but its not impossible to win if the starts are done in a more timely manner. If a person can finish second with a stop and go penalty they can definitely win from the second wave if the starter didn't wait until the first wave cleared turn one.

[r6_philly]

My apologies. But if I see a dead horse in the middle of the road, I may just have to give it a kick  ;D

Although I know 2 wave start is a disadvantage, but I also think that the seperation is a needed measure.

I know it goes back to gridding. But at summit point, if the starter leaves a small space between the 2 waves, I have caught the end of the 1st wave by turn 2.
Imaging if there is only ONE second in between waves, I will be in the middle of the 1st wave (I do get great starts, I just can't keep it up once we get going  :D). But since we don't grid by experience, points, laptimes, skills, there is no garantee that the person in front of me will be carrying the same corner speed. The guy may be parking it in front of me, so thats stuffing 30+ riders into turn one instead of 20.

I am some what biased. I tore my ligament in an accident last year at summit point where the guy in front of me parked it in turn one on start, I lost control while avoiding him, while the guy behind me ran into me, and we took out about 5 others, including the guy in front of me(he was taken out by someone from the outside because he stood it up and cut into the racing line).  That was in a GTU race.

So I want to have the safest start procedure possible. But I got faster, and I want to win or finish better now more than ever, and being in the back most of the time make me want to start better and cut through half of the first wave by the end of first lap. And I really don't want to be in the middle of the back of the 1st, while I and 5 other faster guys from the second wave charge into turn 1. It is just not safe.

Maybe they can further seperate the distance between  the waves on the grid (they skip about 3-4 rows now, make it 10 :) ) but let everyone start at the same time.

As long as we have full grids, its going to be an issue. I rather see it done the safer way than the fair way though.

[BC61]

But at summit point, if the starter leaves a small space between the 2 waves, I have caught the end of the 1st wave by turn 2.
Imaging if there is only ONE second in between waves, I will be in the middle of the 1st wave

r6, sorry to here about your incedent, wrecking always sucks no matter how it happens, but an incident like that could happen with the 21 people that start in the first wave or it could happen seperately in the second wave.

Those starting in the second wave should catch the tail of the first by turn one, one field by the exit of turn one not two seperate races.

With the gap given at VIR, if a person in the second wave runs two seconds a lap faster than the leader they would never catch them in seven laps.

If they would have started like you say happens at Summit it would have been a little better, as it was we didn't catch the first wave until about turn seven.

Safety is an issue but it is in the hands of the riders. Everyone must anticipate the possibilities and ride smart.

I started this thread to let people know I spoke with David Murray about an issue, he was receptive and was considering change. We know they aren't going to change gridding procedures so maybe quicker starts will make things a little more equitable. If you're for quicker second wave starts or not, let them know how you feel.