What causes a rider to drift to the outside?

[r6_philly]

Dude learn how to make a complete statement for gods sake. So you admit yourself that what I said do happen, only on certain bikes. So why did you make a general statement that bikes squat?
What got a ignorance relapse?

How do you know that I read a motorcycle magazine? if motorcycle magazines are useless why do you write for them? So you contribute to the igorance of riding public because you write for useless magazines?

you may want to start thinking through what you say before you make statements? to argue or insult me is not as easy as eating a hamburger, or many hamburgers

By the way, where do I come to out tune you, because I will take you up on the offer.

As far as DA system goes, you are welcome to come out and BUILD A DA system better than I can. and I will explain to you how to analyze it.

When you are ignorant, do not try to act otherwise, it just make it worse.

I never said I know a lot, so don't presume I don't. You somehow like to tell people like you do. You don't need to recite credentials to get people to believe you online, that is JUVINILLE.  Why don't you get your head out of your a$$ and LEARN how other people think and feel. Humbleness sometimes get people to listen to you.

[Team_nuclear123]

What makes you think I care if YOU listen to me?

Get a grip....

Im trying to help a guy out, you are trying to show me how much smarter you are than me...

I write to try to rid the public of the little man that knows the world.. ie - you.

So tell me then Mr smart guy.... By dailing in pro squat on the front, what also has to be done to the rear to compensate? Ever work on a set of forks that had pro squat adjustability? Didnt think so.

Why would you even want pro squat in the forks?

What has been doen to tires in the last 16months that eliminated the chatter?

Why run the Works Showa forks with the lil canister? Whats the canister for?

Wanna see the insides of that fork? Come to WSIR for the 200... The bike Ill be crewing with has them....

THERES a good idea... You get a bike, and a rider, and come run with us at the WSIR200.... ROFLMMFAO... Or better yet, do it all yourself, you are a RACER afterall...

Be real weekend warrior..

[r6_philly]

hey big man, do you NOT read all letters and words?

who are WE? I have asked you, errr, how many times now? How the hell am I going to find you if you don't tell me who?

You will be crewing with? you mean you are the mechanic?

Pro Squat? what the heck is that? how come I have not heard of it? (wait, I don't race, ride, do 50+ track days a year and read magazines... hmmm must be it) Oh right, must be that california dialect you are speaking.

What chatter, what tires? why does every time chatter? which chatter? what are you talking about? remember I don't know what you are thinking, and expressing yourself takes intelligence. which you obviously having problem

By the way, you are the one who is trying to show the world that he is smart.

when did I ever say I was smart, and I was trying to prove it to you? no I am the dumbest person here. serious.

Taking smack over the internet? ROTFLMAO ... ya, someone from philadelphia is going to go out to WSIR to prove you wrong over a Internet posting... very easy to stand up for yourself when you know it aint gonna happen. right big man?

how about you come to philly and show me how good of a tuner you are?

you be real. Well yo gotta get real first

[r6_philly]

oh gosh I know you couldn't freaking type but this is ridiculous... or maybe you couldn't read too fast...

[Super Dave]

The forces you speak of are only applied when the chain is in contact with the top of the swingarm or the countershatft position is lower than the swingarm pivot. that is why you have not seen this in any sportbikes in the last 10 years or so. It was the force of the chain drive pushing the bike.

Whoa...

Anti squat happens.  There is an amount of it that exists even off the throttle.  Best way to find how it works when you have real squat is to ride, or even race a bike where the swingarm pivot is located on the plane between the rear axle and the countershaft.  That's why old bikes needed such a heavy spring...they didn't have the anti squat effect to help the suspension.

Now, the pivot is located above that plane.  Swingarms are longer etc too.

Traction is higher.  That's relevant too.  Yes, there is a certain amount of load that is put into the suspension under acceleration that does change the geometry, but the anti squat created by chain torque does take up some of that.

But set the rear shock up shorter where the pivot and the C/S & R/A are in that plane...it sucks.  The reality is that when off the gas, the bike can go into a squat mode that pulls the weight back and down...CG moves like an inverted pendulum...  Now hit the brakes, some weight will move forward, but not enough.  The bike will slow down in a rather "wooden" fashion.  Old drum brakes work pretty good, but the geometry of those bikes allowed for almost no anti squat and a lot of squat.  But they didn't have the traction loads that we do now either, so they cannot be expected to completely understand.

Original topic...running wide...

Can be a set up issue.  Here's my reality based on my generalizations:  most people can actually get a bike around a race track without killing themselves or others.  Some people have such quick reaction speeds that they are able to quickly micro manage the bike's issues.  Some of us cannot, and we ride accoringly.  That's feel.  You ride as fast as you feel comfortable.  Next step for both riders...either figure out how to make the suspension work for you and your riding with the bike, or you just go the same speed.  For some, they can afford to buy someone to interpret the information and make adjustments.  

Guess my position was to help the guys that wanted to figure it out.  There is a rhyme to reason about the whole thing.  Each person has an amount of DA inside their head.  Teaching them how to use it is my gig.

[Mark Bernard]

"Can't we all just get along?"  :'(

[smoke]

Thanks Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think i will have a shop look at my set for next year. This year I kind of went by what felt right.  I mean I did not and still don't know a lot so we set it up by what felt right.

I.E I can get on the front brakes hard and there is no movement up front ( front end does not dive down) we set it up to be that way. But I still don't know why we did it or if it was right . It just felt ok.

I still have the stock shock on the rear. ( :()

My DA in my head needs work.

[Super Dave]

Thanks Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!


I still have the stock shock on the rear. ( :()

That can be part of it.

The shock's length is set at a certain point.  The CG of the bike moves more rearward when you put on a 70 aspect ratio front tire (if it didn't have one.  The location of the swingarm pivot is not condusive to racing with the stock shock length.  Additionally, the rate of the spring might not be enough to support the load of the traction that is available.  The rear get all wound up and it runs wide because the rear sacks down and it opens up the trail and steering head up front.  Blah, blah, blah.

It's not easy for you to see, or even for most people to see.  I guess that's what I try to do in my work with riders, be it one on one or in groups.  

Somtimes, your shop might not even understand it.

[1fastmofo]

NO, being hard on the gas make the rear rise... this has been discussed and scientifically proven by many means

Funny, I tried to explain this on another forum a while back and was chastized (sp?) like crazy for it.  ::) Good to see I'm not alone on this position.  ;)

[Super Dave]

Lots of variables to understand.  And it's not easy to say that it will always happen one way.  Wrong spring rate and a light throttle can make everything work differently.  

And in motorcycle racing, few listen.  Kind of  macho sport rather than a listening sport, eh?  

Quite different from the work I do in car racing.

[wizard]

bottom line to slow of a turn in not entry speed but flicking the bike in. new riders turn slow and physics take control makes them drift outside and they have to lean farther and father to hold there line. with experiance you flick the bike in and the turn is done that fast

[Super Dave]

Might be a little more complicated than that...

A bike follows a radius based on it's speed and lean angle.  But, how the rider is seated on the bike is relative to the combined center of gravity.  That can change the radius.  We'll leave that out for now.

A bike that is flicked in quickly to a particular lean angle will follow a particular radius.  Change the point at which the rider flicks (same quickness, same lean angle), that changes the point at which a bike begins that radius.  That changes the point where the radius goes off the track or stays on.

If the bike doesn't hold the line, there are other issues that are probably related to the bike.  Again, we're probably back to the shock length issue and all.  

I'm probably going to stop there.  I could go on about traction and braking into a corner, blah, blah, blah.