Erik is baaaaack...

[Super Dave]

Good for Erik.  HD is crap - talk about a poorly run union shop; I got the impression that the Pa mfg location was run by a militant union.  Buell will do much better without HD - they won't have to use harley's tracktor engines.  I cannot believe that a non-compete clause would even hold water since they are after completely different markets.  Harley is after the older cruiser market and Buell is going after a younger sportier group. 

HD is well aware of it's aging market which is why they bought supported Buell for those many years.  Unfortunately, having to use the sportster engine killed them.

So, Steve, how do you explain how Buell was built from nothing while using the H-D engine?  Your points aren't rational. 

Eric started in 1983 with the Barton, then went with the H-D engine until 2008.  Buell's production and sales numbers were actually very good under the H-D banner.  And that was only starting in 2003 under that banner.

The 1125 was announced in 2007 as a 2008 model.  It has a non H-D engine.  If they will do so much better without H-D, then it would have followed that they would have sold butt loads of 1125's.  I don't recognize that as the case.

It changes the game, hopefully, for Erik, as it is a Rotax engine to his specifications. 

As for the H-D engine being crap, I had more problems with my 2000 ZX6R and my 2006 R6 than I had with my XB "crap" engine.  I also had phone numbers and other contact points to actually get manufacturer technical and parts support that I never had in my previous twenty years of contacts within the industry. 

[dylanfan53]

Recession issues?  Yeah, but, I've said this many times, the state of Wisconsin set up a new tax scheme that forced over $22 million from H-D in this current US and global climate. 

That too.  I don't know what the hell your politicians were smoking up there but IIRC when I read the financials HD was paying taxes at 60%+ at the margin.

[Super Dave]

That too.  I don't know what the hell your politicians were smoking up there but IIRC when I read the financials HD was paying taxes at 60%+ at the margin.

I'm not from here originally, but it's almost bankrupt like California.  Current governor plundered $1 Billion out of the transportation budget, paid from road taxes on gas and diesel, for the general fund.  It's a welfare state here.

[backMARKr]

So, Steve, how do you explain how Buell was built from nothing while using the H-D engine?  Your points aren't rational. 

Cmon Dave...its another chance for Steve to take shots at unions....EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE UNIONS!!!

Personally, I think its the gremlins.......

[Super Dave]

Cmon Dave...its another chance for Steve to take shots at unions....EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE UNIONS!!!:blahblah:

Personally, I think its the gremlins.......

Yeah.

I'm not a big advocate for unions and collective rights over individual achievement, but Harley negotiated the contracts too.  I believe that the unions have pulled back to keep H-D viable.  I do wonder if remaining in Wisconsin is necessarily in their best interest with that new tax thing. 

They sell a huge number of bikes in Wisconsin alone.  So, them leaving might be bad for sales.  They have hard decisions to make.

[backMARKr]

Yeah.

I'm not a big advocate for unions and collective rights over individual achievement, but Harley negotiated the contracts too.  I believe that the unions have pulled back to keep H-D viable.  I do wonder if remaining in Wisconsin is necessarily in their best interest with that new tax thing. 

They sell a huge number of bikes in Wisconsin alone.  So, them leaving might be bad for sales.  They have hard decisions to make.

Honestly...my dad is/was a Teamster for 30+ years, my father in law is/was Teamster for 30+ years. I have mutliple family members that are UAW (Cat) and IBEW.  I am not a hard nosed "Union above all" advocate myself. I often torn between what the unions were and what they are now....I don't pretend to be an expert on any of it. I do know that I get very sick of the pat union bashing comments at times.

I know I am biased, but the Teamsters kept food on the table and everytime one of us got sick, that Central States insurance always came through.  I also know (ironically my Dad and I were having this conversation last night) that  one uncle that was a salaried "company man" at Catepillar got a darn good salary and retirement and that Catepillar based that white collar, non union salary on what the "militant union lineworkers" were making.....

end of rant ......game on.

[Super Dave]

Honestly...my dad is/was a Teamster for 30+ years, my father in law is/was Teamster for 30+ years. I have mutliple family members that are UAW (Cat) and IBEW.  I am not a hard nosed "Union above all" advocate myself. I often torn between what the unions were and what they are now....I don't pretend to be an expert on any of it. I do know that I get very sick of the pat union bashing comments at times.

I know I am biased, but the Teamsters kept food on the table and everytime one of us got sick, that Central States insurance always came through.  I also know (ironically my Dad and I were having this conversation last night) that  one uncle that was a salaried "company man" at Catepillar got a darn good salary and retirement and that Catepillar based that white collar, non union salary on what the "militant union lineworkers" were making.....

end of rant ......game on.

My dad was in a union, and I have other family members that are in unions.

Yup, it put food on the table through my dad, but it ran its course too.  In a world of growth where the world offers competition, the job my dad has is gone.  He was retired before it left, but the writing was on the wall probably ten to twenty years before. 

Was cool to have dad home when I was young during a strike, but when companies and unions build a job to a point where it's not even rational to think about keeping in house or in country, well, I guess I have to look at the union as being ignorant of actual facts. 

I will agree, white collar guys got a good wage as a result.  Case was apparently big up here...but it is gone now.  GM was down the road in Janesville and it is finished. 

Are you required to be in the teachers union, Mark?

[backMARKr]

Are you required to be in the teachers union, Mark?

Yes....IEA/NEA.

I agree the time for the union in its traditional sense is past. What its role ( if any ) is in this day and age....a good question.

My dad and FIL are similar to yours, the last of a generation.

[Super Dave]

Yes....IEA/NEA.

I agree the time for the union in its traditional sense is past. What its role ( if any ) is in this day and age....a good question.

My dad and FIL are similar to yours, the last of a generation.

My wife is in WEAC. 

What is their role today?  Well, is it about a product all the time? 

I'm sure you know of poor workers in your line of work.  But there is virtually no opportunity to get those individuals out of the education of students in a monopolized system.  I know that my wife and I talk about it.

On the other side, politics in the monopolized school system plays against the whole thing.  If a political administrator, principle, or dean just doesn't like you, they can really mess with everything that has to do with your work...in spite being an outstanding educator.

Then there's the idea of
incentive pay for teachers that have good students"...just lower the standards for students and a teacher could generate great averages...all while not giving the students the product that those that are forced to contribute have been promised.  I know that I wouldn't want to see some political hack giving out the incentives for that.

Was "a union job" a good thing for my dad?  Honestly, it's hard to say.  He never claimed to be bright, but he was.  He was also a hard worker.  So, he could have done something more that would have paid him more in private employment based on his merit as a working man rather than a collectivised person in a system of paid protectionism that eventually helped eliminate the position that was once his.  Had he started ten years later and then worked ten years later, he would have had nothing for his work toward retirement.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

GM was down the road in Janesville and it is finished. 

Actually J-villes plant is on "stand-by status". I do doubt very much they will ever fire it back up though. GM should be forced to tear it down and clean up the property from EPA issues. The parking lots looks like weed central now. BTW I'm close enough I could spit on the plant.

I wont say what I think about unions, but after being fucked over by the UAW twice and the NWCC, well that will give you an idea.

[SV88]

I actually wrote a scathing replies to Dave's HD and Mark's union comments but fully realizing that I'm in a alcohol induced coma particularly after refereeing 4 hockey games today, decided to safe it as a draft and revisit at a more sober time.

[backMARKr]

I'll go ahead and fill in my response now.....

insert wilkins scathing rant here

WELL GOOD FOR YOU





thank you Tim Struyk for the catch all response for when you really don't give a shit!