performance index?

[kl3640]

Vas Quote-
Also, CATMAN, if you're looking to get caught up on the happenings during your absence, maybe try the Search feature, as much of this stuff has been discussed in prior threads

I have been just basically reading much lately,going backwards through the previous pages of threads.  I just answered originally too quickly and this topic wasn't high on my list quite yet of things to ponder,since its hard to collect any points without being on a grid for a couple seasons- I am glad ,to have it clearly explained,and it is a great topic most would agree ,for sure. Thanks much- congrats on your  vas? (and Greg's) efforts,I am still reading through the important stuff,right? Cat

Cat, Wasn't trying to be a wise-ass, just trying to hopefully save you some time (specifically, we discussed this thread before in the past few months).

Greg, thanks for clarifying above.  I had only heard that before about each class's PI being averaged with the same weight, regardless of the # of races run in that class over the course of a season, so I didn't want to state it as fact without having someone else verify.

Oh, FWIW, a single race PI=0 is impossible so long as you are scored in the results, though PI could converge on 0 as grid size increases.  The lowest single race PI that I've ever seen is PI = ( (43-42)/43) * 1000 = 23.25...it was an AM MW race at Daytona with 43 bikes on the grid!

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

When the whole P/I calculation (added on to overall points) was being considered I warned that what would result would be a Middleweight Championship - not a Championship that would allow a rider with any other single bike to win (it would require at least 2 different class bikes).

Why? Because of what has already been mentioned - number of riders per race class and the number of classes a single bike can run in competatively. For example a good rider on a Middleweight bike can run all their classes plus all the Heavyweight and Unlimited classes competatively at most tracks (with top speed tracks being the rare exception, but they can still place well). Compare the number of classes available to race on 1 Middleweight bike to the Lightweight and Unlimited class bikes and it's obvious that your going to be at a serious disadvantage in pursueing a #1 plate if your not racing a Middleweight bike or at least 2 different class bikes.

The other factor is number of riders per race class, if your looking for a Top 10 plate you better be a consistent podium finisher in every race you run or be running the biggest entry classes to minimize your losses with the P/I. The unfortunate fault and reality of the current system is that it doesn't factor in competition, it factors in sheer numbers of riders. I've seen great battles amongst the top 5 riders in lower entry classes (less than 10 riders total) and the Top 5 basically playing follow the leader in some of the large entry classes (60 riders total) - yet the 5th place person who fought the whole race in the lower entry class will be punished with a crappy P/I (because of the way the P/I is calculated) and lose all kinds of points as compared to the person in the large entry class who also finished 5th but didn't have to fight the whole race like the other rider did.

So if your looking to get a Top 10 plate make sure and run as many classes as you can, but be selective if possible and only run the classes you can finish well in and make sure their the biggest entry classes as well (to minimize the P/I penalty from any bad finishes). You also want to make sure that if you finish poorly in a random class that you only ran at 1 event that you run that class at least a few more times (and place well) to lessen the P/I effects of that one bad result! 

[kl3640]

When the whole P/I calculation (added on to overall points) was being considered I warned that what would result would be a Middleweight Championship - not a Championship that would allow a rider with any other single bike to win (it would require at least 2 different class bikes).

Why? Because of what has already been mentioned - number of riders per race class and the number of classes a single bike can run in competatively. For example a good rider on a Middleweight bike can run all their classes plus all the Heavyweight and Unlimited classes competatively at most tracks (with top speed tracks being the rare exception, but they can still place well). Compare the number of classes available to race on 1 Middleweight bike to the Lightweight and Unlimited class bikes and it's obvious that your going to be at a serious disadvantage in pursueing a #1 plate if your not racing a Middleweight bike or at least 2 different class bikes.

The other factor is number of riders per race class, if your looking for a Top 10 plate you better be a consistent podium finisher in every race you run or be running the biggest entry classes to minimize your losses with the P/I. The unfortunate fault and reality of the current system is that it doesn't factor in competition, it factors in sheer numbers of riders. I've seen great battles amongst the top 5 riders in lower entry classes (less than 10 riders total) and the Top 5 basically playing follow the leader in some of the large entry classes (60 riders total) - yet the 5th place person who fought the whole race in the lower entry class will be punished with a crappy P/I (because of the way the P/I is calculated) and lose all kinds of points as compared to the person in the large entry class who also finished 5th but didn't have to fight the whole race like the other rider did.

So if your looking to get a Top 10 plate make sure and run as many classes as you can, but be selective if possible and only run the classes you can finish well in and make sure their the biggest entry classes as well (to minimize the P/I penalty from any bad finishes). 

Bingo.  I couldn't agree more, but the debate on how to fix it is just as fierce.  There are advantages and disadvantages to the various proposed solutions, which include suggestions such as limiting a class's contribution to championship points to only points earned on equipment that was designed for that class, only counting the top X races on a given weekend, etc.

What should be changed, no matter what, is the weighting of classes in the calculation of Overall PI.  Overall PI should be a weighted average of individual Class PI's based on the # of events run in each class, because otherwise the ability of a rider to influence his Overall Adjusted Points by entering one or two classes near the end of a season is unfair.

[Rick Johnson 29]

I'll be racing a R6 in some of the MW classes and a R1 in some of the unlimited classes.So it seems like both classes will determine my PI.Is this correct?

[MELK-MAN]

... or... limit the number of classes that could count toward a championship. However that is not in the best interest of CCS financially. THere is no perfect method, and the PI is better than just adding up total points.

[Rick Johnson 29]

So say for example I ran all the mid atlantic unl.ss,unl.sb on the R1 and mwss,mwgp on the R6 the points from the unlimited races would not effect or becombined with the points from the MW races but both will effect my PI.Is this a correct statement? Thanks for any help as I am new to all this.I did run the two VIR race weekends this year but wasn't really worried about points or PI since I just did the two.I hope to do most of the MA races in 09 so just trying to learn scoring,points,and PI.

[kl3640]

So say for example I ran all the mid atlantic unl.ss,unl.sb on the R1 and mwss,mwgp on the R6 the points from the unlimited races would not effect or becombined with the points from the MW races but both will effect my PI.Is this a correct statement? Thanks for any help as I am new to all this.I did run the two VIR race weekends this year but wasn't really worried about points or PI since I just did the two.I hope to do most of the MA races in 09 so just trying to learn scoring,points,and PI.

You have a PI per class, and an Overall PI.  From what I understand (from guys who have come down to the wire as for whether they get a #1 or #2 plate), the Overall PI is an average of your individual class PI's, but it's not a weighted average, it's just a strict arithmetic mean, i.e., regardless of how many events you ran in each class over the course of a season, each class contributes the same to the calculation of your Overall PI.  Ergo, you could add a single class to a single weekend of a region's season, and have a 1/X effect on your PI (where X is the # of classes that you ran all season long).

[JBraun]

The current system works. If you finish 5th in a 30 bike field, it should be worth more than 5th in a 7 bike field.
With a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s. No offense to the guys who race the other classes, but there is a big difference between a win in MW supersport and a win in Supertwins.

[kl3640]

The current system works. If you finish 5th in a 30 bike field, it should be worth more than 5th in a 7 bike field.
With a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s. No offense to the guys who race the other classes, but there is a big difference between a win in MW supersport and a win in Supertwins.

But that is not the case.  The Overall PI is an average of Class PI's, not an average of all results across all races.  Therefore, if you race two classes, and your PI in one is a .250, and a .750 in the other, then your Overall PI is a .500.  That is also true if you race 12 races in the first class and only 1 race in the second class; they get averaged regardless of the level of participation in one class or another over the course of a season.

[wolf44]

Exactly Vas,
you could run 1 class all SEASON and win every race.. PI of 1000. Then you decide "hey, ill run race-X" and you finish dead friggin last after crashing on the start.
1 race.. PI "0".. that one race for that one class is figured in with as much weight to your OVERALL performance index as the class you won all 10 races in.. 1000 + 0 / 2 = 500. YOur overall pi is 500 even though you won 10 races in 1 class and finished dead last in only 1 race.

ask me how I know how much that hurts....well besides the pi of 1000




It was 895
and in one ill fated last weekend of the year 500something....doh

[HAWK]

How about running as an amateur in ULWSB, and being scored against the experts? Then seeing what it does to your PI in the other classes.

There will always be problems but then this is really about having fun right?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

With a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s.

Just for clarity (for any new or so to be racers) - that has alot more to do with the 4-1/4 to 5 Lbs per Hp ratio those fastest riders have on those bikes than anything else. It takes alot of talent and/or experience to get within 5% of the track record, it takes even more talent (at that pace) to do it when you have excessive power (like 3 to 4 Lbs per Hp) because it's progressively more difficult to maintain traction in the turns and apply that extra power to the ground coming out of the turns. This is the major factor why riders who may be blazingly fast on a 600 may have trouble achieving the same pace on a bike with less weight per Hp (because now you have to regulate the power much more carefully).

The traction threshold (where the tire can start to spin from extra power) is right around 5 to 5-1/2 Lbs per Hp, give or take based on the multitude of factors that can effect traction, but it's still in the ball park. If you go back to the late 90's the avg 600 racers power to weight ratio was about 3/4 to 1 pound per Hp heavier than today's bikes and respectively were not the fastest bikes on the track. Back then the 750's were the ones really haulin because they had less power and were heavier than today's 750's and were in the easier to ride power to weight ratio range that 600's are in today.

The reality isn't that 600's today are so awesome on the track, it's about the current power to weight ratio's of the 600's being easier to ride than the bigger displacement bike's with less weight per Hp.