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Superbike Legality Question

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murf99

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Superbike Legality Question
« on: July 15, 2008, 09:36:53 pm »
I ride an '01 Aprilia Mille R.  It doesn't have an airbox, so I cannot run Supersport, and my previous weekend a Road America illustrated the point that I need more horsepowers.

The chronology of Aprilia V990 motors goes like this:
>=01 - 'Old' motor
02-03 'Updated heads (more power)
>04 - Revised engine with bottom end updates

So, what's legal in superbike.  I have to use 'standard' cases... etc. - but am I allowed to update and backdate that standard engine within the same model?  Can I stuff an '04 engine in my '01 chassis?

Thanks for your input.
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Todd Murray
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Super Dave

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 09:45:43 pm »
Todd, CCS rules are kind of different from other organizations rules in that if it is not specifically called out to be illegal, it's legal.

In CCS superbike, there isn't anything that says you can't update or back date the engine.  How I read it, I think you could do it legally.

How will that help you lap times?  Ram air might help.  What did you do for lap times?
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Super Dave

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murf99

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 12:25:38 am »
How would more horsepower help my laptimes??  Erm, by getting me down the straights faster... LOL

Laptimes this past race at Road A were 2:34-2:38s.  I was giving up about 10-15 bike lengths per straight...  I dynoed 102 on the ASRA dyno.  426lbs.

The owner before me removed the airbox and installed a kit that utilizes the bottom of the tank as an 'enlarged' airbox volume.  It's supposedly a popular mod on RSV-Rs.

I understand the detriment of running 'without' an airbox.  Resonance tuning, factories knowing what they're doing... etc.  However, the bike came with a custom power commander map (with current 'un-airbox').  The curve (per the ASRA dyno, and my arse dyno) is super smooth and ridable.  Progressive power, no hits in the torque curve.

So, to reinstall the airbox probably means compromising that curve.  Then, I'd need another map to maintain ridability, which would be $300, which is a good chunk of change towards an updated motor...
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Todd Murray
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Super Dave

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 06:06:22 am »
I'm with you.  I raced an SV1000 last year.  It made 101 on the ASRA dyno but weighed just a few pounds less than your Aprilia.

I loved the bike, but it was irritating at Road America.


How much more power do you think you can make on a dyno with an updated motor? 

Personally, I think the ram air is a factor that can't be overlooked as it does boost 600's over their 104HP limit in operation, in addition to their weighing about 40 or more pounds less than our 1000's.  Those parts will impact lap times.
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Super Dave

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123user

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 09:16:18 am »
I read the rules this way, SB machines must use a motor from "a" production machine... that doesn't mean it has to come from that make/model/year bike.  Didn't guys put RZ motors in Hawks in the past?

Aprilla parts are even less common than Ducati's, I'd guess that a newer (not stolen) motor would be hyper-expensive... like 3000-4000.  Not to mention the fact that you would still have to re-tune. The biggest bang for buck is probably weight on the big-twins.  What's the bike weigh?  My aircooled 1000SS ducati only makes 93HP on a FactoryPro (same dyno type as the ASRA) but it weighs about 355lbs.  At the AHRMA event at RA last month I was passing 996's on the front straight and hanging even with Mark Hatten's 749R (I've seen the dyno chart for this bike, JD Horde built it... very strong)  I don't run ram air, or an airbox, or even a full fairing-   the weight makes a big difference on the drive out of the corner, and thus terminal velocity.

Or... you could just buy a newer model- or a Honda!
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Super Dave

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 09:40:19 am »
Didn't guys put RZ motors in Hawks in the past?
Yes, but that takes it out of superbike and moves it to GP.  Similarly, an FZR600 motor in an FZR400 aluminum frame makes it ineligible for superbike.
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Super Dave

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 09:41:15 am »
My aircooled 1000SS ducati only makes 93HP on a FactoryPro (same dyno type as the ASRA) but it weighs about 355lbs.
So, what were your lap times?
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123user

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 10:14:36 am »
I don't know what my lap times were- I don't own a timer and AHRMA still counts on their fingers.  But based on some other riders near me who did have timers, it "felt" like about 2:40-2:42.  Between T3 and T5 the bike "tacked out" at 153mph- but that's not actual, the slip factor for my bike is about 4%, so maybe topped 146-147mph.  On the 6th lap, a brand new barnett clutch decided to give up-so they're sending me a special developed for the AMA ducati's.  It makes 69 ft-lbs (again Factory Pro) @6000rpm but holds steady about 65ft-lbs from 5000-7000rpm... so it works the clutch pretty hard.

Last year, in SS spec, the same bike made 78 (factory pro) HP,  It topped out at about 144 mph (with slip factor included) at Daytona this Fall,  so 146 sounds about right for RA.
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Jason748

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 10:57:18 am »
Todd,
Will the 04+ motor bolt into the old frame?  If ti will I vote that route.  Worst case you could just dust off that 600rr and come back to play in MW  :ahhh:
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murf99

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 07:15:07 pm »
Thanks all for the feedback.  Oddly enough, the scarcity of Aprilia parts has, in turn, led to a surplus of parts on the used market...

Lack of parts and support means that the used value of Aprilias is in the tank.  Thus, one can get significantly more money for thier Aprilias parting them out on the AF1 Forum than they can selling them used.  At any time, there are 3-5 for part out on the boards.  02-03 motors sell for $800-$1000, and make a healthy chunk more horsepower.

According to Sport Rider:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_weights_measurements/index.html
An 01 to 04 update would be worth about 13 bhp (unfortunately with an accompanied loss in midrange).

Not sure about the '04 motor, if it will bolt right in.  Also, the used motors aren't as commonplace... so it may not be a viable option.  However, for sake of rules interpretation, if an '04 motor is legal, an '03 certianly should be.

Wait, I have an '03 RSV-R street bike...
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Todd Murray
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Eye-p

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 09:53:15 am »


The owner before me removed the airbox and installed a kit that utilizes the bottom of the tank as an 'enlarged' airbox volume.  It's supposedly a popular mod on RSV-Rs.

I understand the detriment of running 'without' an airbox.  Resonance tuning, factories knowing what they're doing... etc.  However, the bike came with a custom power commander map (with current 'un-airbox').  The curve (per the ASRA dyno, and my arse dyno) is super smooth and ridable.  Progressive power, no hits in the torque curve.

So, to reinstall the airbox probably means compromising that curve.  Then, I'd need another map to maintain ridability, which would be $300, which is a good chunk of change towards an updated motor...

What you have is in fact an airbox.  It also has 5x the volume of a stock airbox, which I would guess is worth 8-10hp.

OEM Airboxes on stock motorcycles are primarily designed to control noise for emissions testing.

Your airbox is designed for performance, not emissions.

So, going back to a stock airbox is going to cost you HP and TQ- big time.
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Jeff

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Re: Superbike Legality Question
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 12:54:29 pm »
Todd, on a big track like Road A, you would definitely benefit from the power of horses.  However, how often do you run there? Once a year...  Most other tracks, a skilled rider on a 600 can eat up a mediocre rider on a bike with 50 more HP to it.  Consider where your money would be better spent...

What times are you running on smaller more common tracks?
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