Why do we race?

[G 97]

Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or  knocking down another rider to get by them.

So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?

I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.


Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing    ?

Waiting

[HAWK]

Waiting

So my example of being "Stood Up" doesn't cut it? I wasn't knocked down or hit but I did have to drastically alter my line (grab a handful of brake and move my line about 15 feet) to avoid contact. Is that what you consider an acceptable pass?

[Court Jester]

I know I have an overly kind approach at passing. I was told twice at HPT and once at BHF the other day that I’m one of the nicest people when it comes to breaking. For me, it’s just not worth it. Too many wrecks, too many surgeries, too much at stake to do it all again.
Some contact is just accidental. You’re following someone that bobbles a little and you hold your line as they go wide and they turn back in and whack you. But in most cases it’s because of a complete lack of consideration. It’s just an “I don’t care” mentality. Just because there’s two feet of space on the inside of someone at the apex doesn’t mean another rider has the right to ride in or through that two feet of space. To me, that’s nothing less than retarded.
The one thing I would LOVE to see CCS do is to start using a flag to let someone know the leaders are coming up on them. I think it’s a blue flag. I could be wrong. But the worst passes I’ve seen have been from experts lapping slower riders. If I saw that flag, I would leave a bit more room on the inside till they got by. But the leaders not going to wait for my slow ass to tip-toe through the turn and I have no way of knowing they’re back there. So as I see it, until CSS starts using their flag a bit more, the number of stupid passes wont change.     

[tzracer]

CCS used to use the blue flag. It was a mixed bag. Too many riders tried to move out of the way when they saw the blue flag causing more problems. The blue flag was dropped a couple years ago.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Waiting

Ya know, having said my piece, I was gonna let it go.  But apparently that isn't going to work for you.

OK, I'll type slow, so you can follow me.  (Ouch!  Sarcasm!)

What is "Standing someone up?"  You're shoving your bike into the trajectory already established by the rider ahead, probably by diving in on a line that you would otherwise never choose, and one that ultimately will be slower than your normal race line.  Why?  For the express purpose of altering the line of the rider you're trying to pass, therefore making him even slower than you, so you can take the position away from him by force.

Now, since you're intentionally attempting to alter the trajectory of the rider you're trying to pass, one of two things will happen:

A) He WILL alter his trajectory, and you will pass him.

B) he WON'T alter his trajectory, and there will be a
collision.

Now since you've decided to stand this other rider up, what you've done is to initiate a collision.  At this point, according to your "Serious Racer" mentality, it's up to the other rider to avoid the collision by giving you the position.  If he either doesn't see you coming or doesn't yield, then whatever happens next is HIS fault, right?

Let's try this a different way.  We're at a crowded bar, and I want a beer.  You're standing at the bar in my way, so the bartender can't see me to take my order.  I drop to my back foot, get my entire body into the effort, and drive a fist straight at your nose.  Now, by the same logic you use to justify standing someone up on a racetrack, at this point it is your responsibility to get your nose out of the way of my fist, and if something bad happens to you because you don't get out of the way, it's your fault, not mine.

"Whaaaaa!!!  What does a bar fight have to do with racing?  I don't get the connection!  Whaaaaa!!!"

When you stand someone up, YOU are the aggressor, and YOU are putting another competitor at unnecessary risk.  And what if he alters his line to avoid you, loses grip and crashes?  His fault, right?  WRONG!

Hey, I know I'm never going to change your way of thinking.  But bear this in mind.  I hope to GOD that you never try to stand someone up and cause a wreck.  Because if you DO ever hurt someone this way, be it them, yourself, or both, you will then have to live with the knowledge that you participated in this discussion and then consciously made the decision to abandon sportsmanship and the unspoken responsibility that all racers have to not recklessly endanger one another.

Boy, I can't WAIT to hear your resopnse to THIS post.

This is your BIG CHANCE to show everyone EXACTLY what kind of racer you are.  By all means, make the most of it.

[funsizeracing]

 

[HAWK]

Waiting

 

[G 97]

still waiting

1. Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or  knocking down another rider to get by them.

2. So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?

3. Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing  ?

[danboy]

I'll jump in here..Gotta agree with Garth. Where is anyone saying or condoning T-boning anyone? Tight passes are just that sometimes its going to mean blocking someone form coming back around or under them.....thats racing.  Sportbike Track Time has the old 6 ft passing rule if that suites you. Are you say its just not right to be blocked in a race? How many times do you see people  freak a bit when a bike gets close to them....this aint knitting. Sometimes it will come down to inches. Riding around with your own line and nobody interfering sounds more like your own private track in fantasyland. Being out there should carry with it the ability to alter your line or speed if need be whenever you need to. Once a bike is in front or even inside of you it isn't your line anymore and time to find another route around. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

1) You Garth, have talked right here on this board about standing people up, and how it's a perfectly acceptable tactic that "REAL" racers use.  I think my last post made it pretty clear what standing someone up is, and I doubt you can or will argue my definition of standing someone up.

So when you say "Standing someone up," you don't mean actually standing someone up. but just passing close and later bragging that you stood them up, right?  Because suddenly you're talking about close passing, where previously you were talking about standing people up.  And standing someone up is forcing someone to move or be T-Boned.  So which do you mean.  You're waffling.

2) A tight pass that doesn't stand someone up is skillful, clean racing.  Standing someone up is thuggish, unsportsmanlike, puts your fellow competitors at unneccessary risk, and should get you banned from racing.

3)  Someone else already posted a thread where fast guys talked about it.  In response, you posted the URL of the place you learned to read.

Could you maybe explain why standing someone up isn't putting them at risk?  No, you can't.  Instead you'll again use the Pee Wee Herman tactic of, "I know you are, but what am I?"  Your debate skills suck, and your attitude scares me.  Do you believe in karma? 

I'm done.  You're causing me to expend valuable brain cells that I could put to better use on just about anything else.  Good luck with your career....

[Ducmarc]

don't you guys think that half this aggressive passing in a race is because faster bikes have gridded behind slower ones and the urge to catch the leader overcomes even the most well mannered racer.this happened to me on the last race i ran and it put me in the hospital [i got 6 months to think about it] i did not chop anybody but i did try new race lines to pass slower riders 2 at a time and it bit me in one corner. this first come first serve grid is crap either grid by time or points and you Will see this heavy handed passing drop at least in a race.some of my favortie racing was in 7th or 8th with someone my same speed not passing half the field for a podium.

[HAWK]

still waiting

1. Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or  knocking down another rider to get by them.

2. So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?

3. Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing  ?

When you make this "Close Pass" and I hold my line (note: I said, HOLD MY LINE, not "GET SPOOKED") and the result is a collision who is at fault?

Or are you you saying

Now since you've decided to stand this other rider up, what you've done is to initiate a collision.  At this point, according to your "Serious Racer" mentality, it's up to the other rider to avoid the collision by giving you the position.  If he either doesn't see you coming or doesn't yield, then whatever happens next is HIS fault, right?

Sorry Chris, you write more eloquently than I ever will.

You're right, you never condoned t-boning anyone, just as long as everyone gets the hell out of your way. Now if you could just the the sanctioning bodies to allow mirrors so I can see you coming we should  be able to really improve on safety.

Yes I am being sarcastic but I honestly don't know how many ways I can say it, CLOSE PASSES DO NOT BOTHER ME, I have had numerous riders use the 12" of pavement that I left on the outside at the entrance or the inside at the apex (I'm still learning so I leave that little bit of pavement so that a faster rider can make a clean CLOSE pass) I then put my head down and go to school. On the other hand, having someone dive bomb me at the apex with no hope of making the turn without putting us on a collision course and expecting me to get out of their way, that I have a problem with.

Now, could you please explain how you "Stand it Up" in a turn without moving DRASTICALLY to the outside of the turn (off track even if you don't accompany that stand up with some serious brembo)?