You guys might like this one.
http://www.trackdaymag.com/i?a=47 (http://www.trackdaymag.com/i?a=47)
K3 ver well written and thought out. My personal reason is that I'm hoping to beat others on inferiors tools and lower budget. Guess I'm the value racer! To me it's a high level physical and mental challenge...
that one is good
cool article.
It seems less silly than golf.... 8)
Good article K3!!! You touched on the very thing that motivates me. There is some real serenity that seems to be part of intensely focusing on the task at hand, it is somewhat surreal, and extremely rewarding.
:preachon:
I dislike the typical stereotype that most people have about motorcycle racers being macho or crazy. I truly feel that the majority of racers are waaay more calm and calculating than we are given credit for. I find it somewhat insulting when people call me crazy. I know that I can and will get hurt (I am not stupid, thank you very much). I also know that most (not all) racing injuries are not permanently dehabilitating or fatal. Do you really think I have not considered the risks VS rewards? These same people think that there is nothing wrong with Skiing, sky diving, and rock climbing. People get injured and killed doing these other sports, shouldn't they be considered crazy too? The biggest complement that I can receive from someone outside of the sport is when a person states, "you don't seem the racer type". I always use those opportunities to try and revise the typical opinion. I try not to speak in a self-centered macho manner whenever people ask me about racing. Hopefully they leave the conversation with a new opinion.
Sorry for the rant
Guy..
Not a rant...a very accurate assessment I would say! :thumb:
If people really think racing is dangerous take a look at the new sport of "walking on the linoleum after the wife justed mopped without telling you." It is very dangerous and as a matter of fact I took my first spill in this sport this morningwhile carrying the dog no less. I think it is rated up there with "tripping on your hose in the yard" and "kicking the edge of the bed."
I actually did take a spill this morning on the linoleum and I thought I had broken every bone in my body. Worse than almost any spill I have taken on the track. :biggrin:
Quote from: gsracer on May 04, 2007, 10:30:39 AM
Guy..
Not a rant...a very accurate assessment I would say! :thumb:
Thanks Man!!
Quote from: EX_#76 on May 04, 2007, 10:14:30 AM
I dislike the typical stereotype that most people have about motorcycle racers being macho or crazy. I truly feel that the majority of racers are waaay more calm and calculating than we are given credit for.
I used to love the looks people would give me when they found out I was roadracing. I'm pretty conservative and relatively quiet (until you know me at least), so some people couldn't really wrap their minds around it. :biggrin:
Being from Southern Illinois...I get tired of explaining to people that I roadrace --- not motocross. The whole concept of racing a motorcycle on asphalt is pretty foreign out here in the sticks.
The school secretary was surfing channels the other week and landed on Speed when there was some roadracing on and then tells me" It looked like they scraping their knees on the ground they were so close!"
I got the "crazy" look after I explained that we, in fact, drag our knees on the ground --- ON PURPOSE ! :err:
Steve - you sound accident prone - should you be racing. But seriously... I race because it's fun. At 45 (today), with no real expectations of winning even in the LW AM. ranks, what else could it be? I do get stressed wrenching on an old bike at the track - missing the race practices and learning the track during the GT lights but then, that's racing.
I do get the very same comment - "you don't seem like the racer type". The younger guys are close to what outsiders would consider the racer type - I think Marshall S. probably apitomizes the tradional racer profile. Us older guys wouldn't still be around if we weren't conservative and analytical.
My struggles is that I'm a big picture guy (Strategic) and get bored with details. Racing is forcing me to sweat the little stuff because if I don't, at best it will slow me down (and those who know me already know that my best is glacial) and at worse could be lethal...
Cheers & looking forward to seeing all of you @ BHF Sat. if I can get my lap times to the low 20's on Monday afternoon.
Steve.
The danger thing is beyond bizarre to me after breaking 7 bones in an accident at work last fall. I love the sensation of going out and focusing on something so totally that nothing from the real world can get into my head.
It's a great feeling isn't it!
Quote from: SV88 on May 04, 2007, 01:33:32 PM
I think Marshall S. probably apitomizes the tradional racer profile.
I agree. I do not know Marshall, nor have I raced against him to know his true track etiquette, but the manner in which he writes can give a reader an impresion of a racer that I do not like to convey.
I'm laying here in a hospital bed in my living room my 748 that tried to kill me at Jennings on April fools day in the corner watching 24hrs of Richmond qualifying . i received 10 titanium screws and someting that looks plummers strap to hold my femur into my hip scocket {don't ever land on your feet] and i think why am busy working on my bike when i have 6months of rehab why do i lie to the wifeand tell her maybe some track days next year when all i think about is the ROC.two weeks at shands for$95,000 plus chopper ride you ask why?because johnny long called me chicken 2 years ago that's why!Oh and three things of advice for all you future hospital patients. don't land on your feet. don't leave your disability insurance in the things to do pile and make sure you poop every day while staying at your luxury suite of choice marc am 359
Good stuff, K3!
Another great quote about racers was written by John Burns in Motorcyclist years ago. I find that since I've moved up to 600s and am finishing in the bottom 1/3 of the Expert pack, it definetely applies to me.
My best paraphase - apologies to Mr. Burns if I miss a word or two:
"Ever wonder by backmarkers stay out there, even while they're getting lapped by the leaders and there's no way they are gonna place in the money? Because you only need one guy to race."
The race for 23rd can be every bit as fun as the race for 1st - it's all about beating that guy in front of you :thumb:
Quote from: EX_#76 on May 04, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
I agree. I do not know Marshall, nor have I raced against him to know his true track etiquette, but the manner in which he writes can give a reader an impresion of a racer that I do not like to convey.
Well then you have no clue. Not to get in this argument but Marshall both on the track and off conveys what I would want to see a racer be conveyed as. The "impression" some people got from his one article is sad as they have no clue what exactly he meant by what he said and who he is and how he races.
Quote from: zx10rblack51 on May 04, 2007, 04:55:38 PM
Well then you have no clue. Not to get in this argument but Marshall both on the track and off conveys what I would want to see a racer be conveyed as. The "impression" some people got from his one article is sad as they have no clue what exactly he meant by what he said and who he is and how he races.
I didn't see a post from anyone called Marshall in this thread - what are you guys referring to?
Quote from: zx10rblack51 on May 04, 2007, 04:55:38 PM
Well then you have no clue. Not to get in this argument but Marshall both on the track and off conveys what I would want to see a racer be conveyed as. The "impression" some people got from his one article is sad as they have no clue what exactly he meant by what he said and who he is and how he races.
I don't want to start an agruemnt either. The fact that I felt the way I felt without knowing Marshall is proof of what take aways can come from reading his articles in RRW. I have discussed his articles with some of the other racers I know. The consecnsous was that his articles did not portray racing in a favorable manner. That could very well be the group of people I know. It certainly seems that those who know Marshall are very quick to rise to his defence. That makes me think that he probably is a great guy both on and off the track.
The fact that you know Marshall might make you read his words in a different light than I did. After I read his first article I made it a point to watch him ride at BHF. I saw no signs of ill conduct what so ever. That does not change my the way I felt reading his articles. Anyhow my opinion is just that.
Quote from: EX_#76 on May 04, 2007, 06:01:32 PM
I don't want to start an agruemnt either. The fact that I felt the way I felt without knowing Marshall is proof of what take aways can come from reading his articles in RRW. I have discussed his articles with some of the other racers I know. The consecnsous was that his articles did not portray racing in a favorable manner. That could very well be the group of people I know. It certainly seems that those who know Marshall are very quick to rise to his defence. That makes me think that he probably is a great guy both on and off the track.
The fact that you know Marshall might make you read his words in a different light than I did. After I read his first article I made it a point to watch him ride at BHF. I saw no signs of ill conduct what so ever. That does not change my the way I felt reading his articles. Anyhow my opinion is just that.
Fair enough.
"I think Marshall S. probably apitomizes the tradional racer profile. Us older guys wouldn't still be around if we weren't conservative and analytical".
This was not meant to slam Marshall in any way shape or form. In fact I was impressed the first time I met him at my first race weekend. He was helpful, personable and very positive. He's clearly a talented racer - more than I'll ever be and a pretty good writer even if some of us don't agree with one of his diaries. The point I was trying to make is that people outside the racing community would have no problem imagining him as a racer...
Quote from: tshort on May 04, 2007, 05:23:49 PM
I didn't see a post from anyone called Marshall in this thread - what are you guys referring to?
Marshall Skloss wrote a series of articles for Road racing world. I think the series was called the Skloss Files. The articles are a documentary of Marshall's experiences running the CCS circuit last season.
rookie papers i think.
Ohh and Hey Guy, hows it going. You'll never believe it but my giant ass actually won a race with horsepower this past weekend. I wonder why????????? :biggrin: did i mention you and Ed are cheaters :biggrin:
Quote from: benprobst on May 05, 2007, 07:07:14 PM
rookie papers i think.
Ohh and Hey Guy, hows it going. You'll never believe it but my giant ass actually won a race with horsepower this past weekend. I wonder why????????? :biggrin: did i mention you and Ed are cheaters :biggrin:
Hey, Hey, Hey!! you are not supposed to discuss the nitrous trick in public!!!!
Quote from: EX_#76 on May 07, 2007, 09:27:56 AM
Hey, Hey, Hey!! you are not supposed to discuss the nitros trick in public!!!!
So that's what happened. :biggrin:
Quote from: Hawk on May 07, 2007, 10:34:04 AM
So that's what happened. :biggrin:
Yep, the RPM switch kicked in at the wrong time. WHOOOHOOOO, then ground sky, ground sky......
watch how you crash that sneekie pete bottle will break your ribs
How can any "racer" expect to have track day etiquette while racing, then get offended and all up in arms when someone passes them too close. It's racing. Some "racers" would be better suited to doing track days.
do what what?
Garth is right. Club racing is a professional blood sport. Rather than knock your competition out of the way during a race, why not just blackjack them from behind in the bathroom? It's just as sporting, and this way you don't damage their bike in the process.
:rollseyes:
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on May 07, 2007, 11:44:47 PM
Garth is right. Club racing is a professional blood sport. Rather than knock your competition out of the way during a race, why not just blackjack them from behind in the bathroom? It's just as sporting, and this way you don't damage their bike in the process.
:lmao: :lmao:
Quote from: G 97 on May 07, 2007, 04:04:58 PM
How can any “racer” expect to have track day etiquette while racing, then get offended and all up in arms when someone passes them too close. It’s racing. Some "racers" would be better suited to doing track days.
+1
Quote from: G 97 on May 07, 2007, 04:04:58 PM
How can any "racer" expect to have track day etiquette while racing, then get offended and all up in arms when someone passes them too close. It's racing. Some "racers" would be better suited to doing track days.
To me, as long as the overtaking rider does not force you to change your line, it's a fair pass.
I can remember what I feel to have been a turning point in motorsports. I don't remember the year, but the series was Formula 1, and the players were Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. It was the final race of the season, and one of them would be champion. Senna had a few more points before the race, but if Prost beat him to the checker, Prost would be champion.
At the green flag, Prost got the lead. When they arrived at turn 1, Senna went straight, T-boning Prost and taking them both out of the race. Now Senna would be crowned champion. In my opinion, it was the lowest lhing I'd ever seen, but it seemed like that move reset the bar for doing what it takes to win. Hell, in NASCAR they "turn" each other all the time. That shit is plain wrong. At least in pro racing the drivers don't have to pay for their own cars, but that kind of driving can still get someone hurt or killed. Dale Ernhart got turned. He died.
Club racing is supposed to be for fun. If you crash someone to pass them, what are you costing that person? Maybe his bike is destroyed and he can't race. Maybe he's hurt and can't work or pay his bills. That's racing? THAT'S BULLSHIT!
PLAIN AND SIMPLE, BARGING YOUR WAY PAST SHOULD GET YOU SUSPENDED. If I punch someone in the nose because they won't get out of my way at the checkout counter, I go to jail. But if I punt someone at the track because I can't pass them otherwise, that's racing? I don't think so. I've been knocked down twice by overly agressive passers, and both of them later acted like I should have gotten out of the way. Well I behaved like a citizen, but the man in me wanted to beat them with a crowbar. WHO THE FUCK does ANYONE think they are to knock another rider down in order to make a pass? Hell, I SAW Steve Divver get his back broken because some asshole couldn't wait 2 seconds to make a pass, and that was in a Friday practice session! Steve will NEVER be the same. No $3 trophy would ever be worth that, much less some jerk trying to win a practice session.
Last summer I SAW the lead expert punt the last amateur as he lapped him. That Am was my friend. The crash cost him a concussion, all his bodywork, a helmet, a suit repair, and the usual footpeg, clip-on, lever, fairing bracket damage. He was out for the weekend. Was that expert right to punt some guy on his second race weekend ever in order to maintain his lead? Hell, the expert wouldn't have even said shit to the amateur if I hadn't gone over and shamed him.
This level of agression is out of hand for club racing. Nobody needs to get killed over a wood plaque. If you think it's OK to hurt people for sport, sell your bikes and take up boxing. Trackday ediquite my ass. It's about behaving like a human being.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on May 08, 2007, 01:50:04 PM
I can remember what I feel to have been a turning point in motorsports. I don't remember the year, but the series was Formula 1, and the players were Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. It was the final race of the season, and one of them would be champion. Senna had a few more points before the race, but if Prost beat him to the checker, Prost would be champion.
At the green flag, Prost got the lead. When they arrived at turn 1, Senna went straight, T-boning Prost and taking them both out of the race. Now Senna would be crowned champion. In my opinion, it was the lowest lhing I'd ever seen, but it seemed like that move reset the bar for doing what it takes to win. Hell, in NASCAR they "turn" each other all the time. That shit is plain wrong. At least in pro racing the drivers don't have to pay for their own cars, but that kind of driving can still get someone hurt or killed. Dale Ernhart got turned. He died.
Club racing is supposed to be for fun. If you crash someone to pass them, what are you costing that person? Maybe his bike is destroyed and he can't race. Maybe he's hurt and can't work or pay his bills. That's racing? THAT'S BULLSHIT!
PLAIN AND SIMPLE, BARGING YOUR WAY PAST SHOULD GET YOU SUSPENDED. If I punch someone in the nose because they won't get out of my way at the checkout counter, I go to jail. But if I punt someone at the track because I can't pass them otherwise, that's racing? I don't think so. I've been knocked down twice by overly agressive passers, and both of them later acted like I should have gotten out of the way. Well I behaved like a citizen, but the man in me wanted to beat them with a crowbar. WHO THE FUCK does ANYONE think they are to knock another rider down in order to make a pass? Hell, I SAW Steve Divver get his back broken because some asshole couldn't wait 2 seconds to make a pass, and that was in a Friday practice session! Steve will NEVER be the same. No $3 trophy would ever be worth that, much less some jerk trying to win a practice session.
Last summer I SAW the lead expert punt the last amateur as he lapped him. That Am was my friend. The crash cost him a concussion, all his bodywork, a helmet, a suit repair, and the usual footpeg, clip-on, lever, fairing bracket damage. He was out for the weekend. Was that expert right to punt some guy on his second race weekend ever in order to maintain his lead? Hell, the expert wouldn't have even said shit to the amateur if I hadn't gone over and shamed him.
This level of agression is out of hand for club racing. Nobody needs to get killed over a wood plaque. If you think it's OK to hurt people for sport, sell your bikes and take up boxing. Trackday ediquite my ass. It's about behaving like a human being.
WHOOO HOOOO!!! you said it. K3 for CCS president!!! You have got my vote!!!
Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
Quote from: G 97 on May 08, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
+1 yet again. Trackdays are there to have fun and yes club racing is fun as well but some of us would like to advance past club racing to the next level and learning how to pass and be passed closely is all part of that. I like being passed closely and I have had my line changed many times and it was still a clean pass. I just wasnt fast enough at the time to not get passed and not good enough to not hold my line after being passed so that's my problem. I learn alot though every time I pass or am passed closely. Liek Garth said if you dont like the close stuff then try trackdays. ;)
in my passed life we raced stock cars at the local track and rubbing was OK rub to hard and spin a guy they put you in the back and he kept his position i do notice its o well in the pros and us club guys. maybe if the corner worker was given some authority to make a call we would see a meatball for that behavior . it would take someone like henry degow to realize cleaner racing would be better racing with more of use staying in it. marc
Quote from: zx10rblack51 on May 08, 2007, 02:56:49 PM
+1 yet again. Trackdays are there to have fun and yes club racing is fun as well but some of us would like to advance past club racing to the next level and learning how to pass and be passed closely is all part of that. I like being passed closely and I have had my line changed many times and it was still a clean pass. I just wasnt fast enough at the time to not get passed and not good enough to not hold my line after being passed so that's my problem. I learn alot though every time I pass or am passed closely. Liek Garth said if you dont like the close stuff then try trackdays. ;)
Please understand that I am not typing in anger here, just discussing from my point of view.
You changing your line is your own fault (been there, done that) and is a different case. I am referring to when someone else forces you to change your line because they have made an error, like they are sliding, or bad pass timing, or unable to keep their bike completely under control during the pass execution for what ever reason.
I don't mind getting passed at all. I do mind when someone stuffs it underneath me too hard and pushes wide forcing me to go wide, or has not shown me a wheel then suprises me at the apex by trying to run my knee over, or cuts across my front wheel. Just let me know you are there I'll adjust my speed accordingly, and give both of us some extra room. This way if something goes wrong (which is usually,but not always, accidental) there is cushion for one or both of us to correct for the mistake. We can all survive the incident and go home in one piece.
I know this is not your reply but I will make a point to the other fella who was asking what F1 and nascar has to do with this subject. Chris is just extrapolating on the "win at all cost" idea that some club (And Pro) racers seem to have. An I agree with him there is no place in racing for this sort of behavior. Much the same way as there was no place in boxing for Tyson to bite an ear.
One of the hardest things to learn is the sport of racing is emotional control. Do not get upset with the racer in front of you because you can not get by!!! It will make you more aggressive (and possibly angry) If you are truly faster than the person in front of you, you will get by. And if it takes you two three or more turns to do it cleanly, so be it. If you loose time trying to complete the pass, so be it. If you "Loose" a race because of it, so be it. It is not worth the risk of bodily injury and or equipment (to you or the person being passed) to make a pass that you are not reasonably sure will execute cleanly.
Quote from: G 97 on May 08, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,15255.0.html
Quote from: r1owner on May 08, 2007, 04:15:04 PM
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,15255.0.html
http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/sites/elementary/palmasola/readcompex.htm
Good call K3!
Quote from: gsracer on May 04, 2007, 12:00:50 PM
Being from Southern Illinois...I get tired of explaining to people that I roadrace --- not motocross. The whole concept of racing a motorcycle on asphalt is pretty foreign out here in the sticks.
The school secretary was surfing channels the other week and landed on Speed when there was some roadracing on and then tells me" It looked like they scraping their knees on the ground they were so close!"
I got the "crazy" look after I explained that we, in fact, drag our knees on the ground --- ON PURPOSE ! :err:
It's the same here. I would tell someone I race and they ask about the jumps. When I broke my shoulder blade at MAM and went to the hospital in Maryville, MO they looked at me funny when I said I was in a motorcycle accident. I guess they were expecting blood everywhere or at least road rash but I didn't have a scratch on me.
Quote from: G 97 on May 08, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
...because you can. It's amazing what you guys do out there!
Quote from: G 97 on May 08, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
I've got NO problem with a close pass and yet I'm one of the racers that someone here is referring to when he says some riders should just stay with trackdays. Why you ask? because I got all up in arms when someone came in hot under me after I had turned in and forced me to scrub 20 mph leaned over and wait while he ran almost off the outside of the track before turning. In my haste to not send us both into the sand trap I forgot to take 2 more downshifts to compensate and he got the drive to the checkers. Is that really the way you want to be passed?
K3's got a point, just take out your competition in the outhouse before the race, less messy that way.
Just for the record the other rider and I have made our peace with each other and look forward to racing together again.
Quote from: G 97 on May 08, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
I fail to see what Formula One or NASCAR has anything to do with this discussion.
Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
Waiting
Quote from: G 97 on May 09, 2007, 12:18:41 AM
Waiting
So my example of being "Stood Up" doesn't cut it? I wasn't knocked down or hit but I did have to drastically alter my line (grab a handful of brake and move my line about 15 feet) to avoid contact. Is that what you consider an acceptable pass?
I know I have an overly kind approach at passing. I was told twice at HPT and once at BHF the other day that I'm one of the nicest people when it comes to breaking. For me, it's just not worth it. Too many wrecks, too many surgeries, too much at stake to do it all again.
Some contact is just accidental. You're following someone that bobbles a little and you hold your line as they go wide and they turn back in and whack you. But in most cases it's because of a complete lack of consideration. It's just an "I don't care" mentality. Just because there's two feet of space on the inside of someone at the apex doesn't mean another rider has the right to ride in or through that two feet of space. To me, that's nothing less than retarded.
The one thing I would LOVE to see CCS do is to start using a flag to let someone know the leaders are coming up on them. I think it's a blue flag. I could be wrong. But the worst passes I've seen have been from experts lapping slower riders. If I saw that flag, I would leave a bit more room on the inside till they got by. But the leaders not going to wait for my slow ass to tip-toe through the turn and I have no way of knowing they're back there. So as I see it, until CSS starts using their flag a bit more, the number of stupid passes wont change.
CCS used to use the blue flag. It was a mixed bag. Too many riders tried to move out of the way when they saw the blue flag causing more problems. The blue flag was dropped a couple years ago.
Quote from: G 97 on May 09, 2007, 12:18:41 AM
Waiting
Ya know, having said my piece, I was gonna let it go. But apparently that isn't going to work for you.
OK, I'll type slow, so you can follow me. (Ouch! Sarcasm!)
What is "Standing someone up?" You're shoving your bike into the trajectory already established by the rider ahead, probably by diving in on a line that you would otherwise never choose, and one that ultimately will be slower than your normal race line. Why? For the express purpose of altering the line of the rider you're trying to pass, therefore making him even slower than you, so you can take the position away from him by force.
Now, since you're intentionally attempting to alter the trajectory of the rider you're trying to pass, one of two things will happen:
A) He WILL alter his trajectory, and you will pass him.
B) he WON'T alter his trajectory, and there will be a
collision.
Now since you've decided to stand this other rider up, what you've done is to initiate a collision. At this point, according to your "Serious Racer" mentality, it's up to the other rider to avoid the collision by giving you the position. If he either doesn't see you coming or doesn't yield, then whatever happens next is HIS fault, right?
Let's try this a different way. We're at a crowded bar, and I want a beer. You're standing at the bar in my way, so the bartender can't see me to take my order. I drop to my back foot, get my entire body into the effort, and drive a fist straight at your nose. Now, by the same logic you use to justify standing someone up on a racetrack, at this point it is your responsibility to get your nose out of the way of my fist, and if something bad happens to you because you don't get out of the way, it's your fault, not mine.
"Whaaaaa!!! What does a bar fight have to do with racing? I don't get the connection! Whaaaaa!!!"
When you stand someone up, YOU are the aggressor, and YOU are putting another competitor at unnecessary risk. And what if he alters his line to avoid you, loses grip and crashes? His fault, right? WRONG!
Hey, I know I'm never going to change your way of thinking. But bear this in mind. I hope to GOD that you never try to stand someone up and cause a wreck. Because if you DO ever hurt someone this way, be it them, yourself, or both, you will then have to live with the knowledge that you participated in this discussion and then consciously made the decision to abandon sportsmanship and the unspoken responsibility that all racers have to not recklessly endanger one another.
Boy, I can't WAIT to hear your resopnse to THIS post. :pop:
This is your BIG CHANCE to show everyone EXACTLY what kind of racer you are. By all means, make the most of it.
:pop: :pop: :pop:
still waiting
1. Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
2. So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
3. Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
I'll jump in here..Gotta agree with Garth. Where is anyone saying or condoning T-boning anyone? Tight passes are just that sometimes its going to mean blocking someone form coming back around or under them.....thats racing. Sportbike Track Time has the old 6 ft passing rule if that suites you. Are you say its just not right to be blocked in a race? How many times do you see people freak a bit when a bike gets close to them....this aint knitting. Sometimes it will come down to inches. Riding around with your own line and nobody interfering sounds more like your own private track in fantasyland. Being out there should carry with it the ability to alter your line or speed if need be whenever you need to. Once a bike is in front or even inside of you it isn't your line anymore and time to find another route around.
1) You Garth, have talked right here on this board about standing people up, and how it's a perfectly acceptable tactic that "REAL" racers use. I think my last post made it pretty clear what standing someone up is, and I doubt you can or will argue my definition of standing someone up.
So when you say "Standing someone up," you don't mean actually standing someone up. but just passing close and later bragging that you stood them up, right? Because suddenly you're talking about close passing, where previously you were talking about standing people up. And standing someone up is forcing someone to move or be T-Boned. So which do you mean. You're waffling.
2) A tight pass that doesn't stand someone up is skillful, clean racing. Standing someone up is thuggish, unsportsmanlike, puts your fellow competitors at unneccessary risk, and should get you banned from racing.
3) Someone else already posted a thread where fast guys talked about it. In response, you posted the URL of the place you learned to read.
Could you maybe explain why standing someone up isn't putting them at risk? No, you can't. Instead you'll again use the Pee Wee Herman tactic of, "I know you are, but what am I?" Your debate skills suck, and your attitude scares me. Do you believe in karma? :whine:
I'm done. You're causing me to expend valuable brain cells that I could put to better use on just about anything else. Good luck with your career....
don't you guys think that half this aggressive passing in a race is because faster bikes have gridded behind slower ones and the urge to catch the leader overcomes even the most well mannered racer.this happened to me on the last race i ran and it put me in the hospital [i got 6 months to think about it] i did not chop anybody but i did try new race lines to pass slower riders 2 at a time and it bit me in one corner. this first come first serve grid is crap either grid by time or points and you Will see this heavy handed passing drop at least in a race.some of my favortie racing was in 7th or 8th with someone my same speed not passing half the field for a podium.
Quote from: G 97 on May 09, 2007, 08:07:53 PM
still waiting
1. Please show me where anyone has ever condoned running into or knocking down another rider to get by them.
2. So making a tight pass on someone is the same as T-boning them?
3. Why is it that none of the fast guys are taking issue with close/stuff type passing ?
When you make this "Close Pass" and I hold my line (note: I said, HOLD MY LINE, not "GET SPOOKED") and the result is a collision who is at fault?
Or are you you saying
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on May 09, 2007, 05:59:22 PM
Now since you've decided to stand this other rider up, what you've done is to initiate a collision. At this point, according to your "Serious Racer" mentality, it's up to the other rider to avoid the collision by giving you the position. If he either doesn't see you coming or doesn't yield, then whatever happens next is HIS fault, right?
Sorry Chris, you write more eloquently than I ever will.
You're right, you never condoned t-boning anyone, just as long as everyone gets the hell out of your way. Now if you could just the the sanctioning bodies to allow mirrors so I can see you coming we should be able to really improve on safety.
Yes I am being sarcastic but I honestly don't know how many ways I can say it, CLOSE PASSES DO NOT BOTHER ME, I have had numerous riders use the 12" of pavement that I left on the outside at the entrance or the inside at the apex (I'm still learning so I leave that little bit of pavement so that a faster rider can make a clean CLOSE pass) I then put my head down and go to school. On the other hand, having someone dive bomb me at the apex with no hope of making the turn without putting us on a collision course and expecting me to get out of their way, that I have a problem with.
Now, could you please explain how you "Stand it Up" in a turn without moving DRASTICALLY to the outside of the turn (off track even if you don't accompany that stand up with some serious brembo)?
Quote from: Ducmarc on May 09, 2007, 10:32:50 PM
don't you guys think that half this aggressive passing in a race is because faster bikes have gridded behind slower ones and the urge to catch the leader overcomes even the most well mannered racer.this happened to me on the last race i ran and it put me in the hospital [i got 6 months to think about it] i did not chop anybody but i did try new race lines to pass slower riders 2 at a time and it bit me in one corner. this first come first serve grid is crap either grid by time or points and you Will see this heavy handed passing drop at least in a race.some of my favortie racing was in 7th or 8th with someone my same speed not passing half the field for a podium.
I agree and would like to see point based griding for pre-enteries but you must remember that in longer races such as the GT races, and when you have 2 classes gridded in a 2 wave start, you are still going see faster riders passing backmarkers and then is still comes back to close but safe, clean passes.
your right Paul it would be perfect but the hope is the leading riders would have some respect this happens a lot for me in light wt 40 after 4 laps i start looking and expecting. that's my other question why this long pause in a 2 wave start it just lets the fast guys catch the slow ones quicker 5 Mississippi's is enough not half a lap.
Quote from: Ducmarc on May 09, 2007, 11:12:26 PM
your right Paul it would be perfect but the hope is the leading riders would have some respect this happens a lot for me in light wt 40 after 4 laps i start looking and expecting. that's my other question why this long pause in a 2 wave start it just lets the fast guys catch the slow ones quicker 5 Mississippi's is enough not half a lap.
Actually the second wave usually goes within 10 seconds of the first ( I think they actually wait for the last bike to clear turn 1, not sure about that though) , you have to remember that in F40 that first wave can have 750 I4s which can chew up track between them and you at a pretty alarming rate.
yes Paul I've raced that class for two years and i here what your saying I've won the lightweight a couple of times but it's the only class that will make you start smoking camels cause you never know how it's going to pan out. usually first turn log jam and a couple of red flags. my long time mentor and isle of man racer john long told me .eye sight shot,reflexes shot, joints shot, no kids in school,plenty of insurance what do you expect ?
Okay, K3, I'll be your huckleberry.
You've now said that anytime a rider has to alter his trajectory during a race he has suddenly become the victim of unsportsmanlike conduct and been recklessly endangered by a fellow racer who's abandoned all responsibility.
Brilliant. You've obviously never seen a race, much less been involved in one, regardless of the fact you own and operate a motorcycle on a racetrack, and like to call yourself a racer.
It's obvious that the real issue here is how one defines the term, "standing someone up." So let's use an example even you can follow. I'll type slowly, so you can follow my line.
Two bikes are approaching the braking zone at the end of a straightaway. Bike 1 is in front of bike 2. Bike 1 brakes to prepare for turn in. Bike 2 lines bike 1 up on the brakes, moving alongside and into the area bike 1 would normally begin to turn.
Now then, bike 1's line has become altered by bike 2. Bike 2 is effectively standing bike 1 up by taking away his normal turn in point and forcing bike 1 to wait until bike 2 has turned in first.
According to your philosophy, bike 1 is now the victim of unsportsmanlike conduct. Bike 2 is the aggressor, and should be banned from competition. Further, if bike 1 freaks out and crashes because bike 2 took away his line, then the rider who passed bike 1 on the brakes now has to live with this fact for the rest of his life.
Put the crack pipe down, grow a set, and pull your head out. You've just described the same rules we enforce in the Beginner group at NESBA, where it sounds like you belong.
No one is saying it's okay to T-bone another rider at the apex, forcing him to get the hell out of the way or be killed for a bowling trophy, but you have accept the fact that in racing, lines get altered all the time. Turn in points get blocked, apexes get taken away, and yes, riders sometimes go through an entire corner side by side, battling, if you will, for the line.
maybe a more accurate description of what each of you are refering to would be more condusive to seeing how the other side interprets this. instead of pounding your chests and insulting the credibility of one anothers skills or decisions...
Making a pass that forces the other rider to delay turning in is a far cry from "standing someone up" IMO. K3's reference was that the rider had to alter the line he had already established, to avoid contact. Waiting to turn in and starting to turn in are both different than reaching the apex and being divebombed.
If you would stop going to extreme's to suit your argument I think you would both agree that a bullied pass that forces the passee to avoid getting creamed is BS and not necessary at the club level. yes a rider may have to slightly alter his line, or CHOOSE to alter his line in a close passing situation. he may have to hesitate on the gas, he may have to brake a little deeper, he may have to do something different... it happens. but throwing a bike into a corner so deep and so late that the rider has to check up completely to avoid contact is a bunch of shit at this level. If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer :blahblah:
Why is it when the Nesbians show up there is always a fight??? :ahhh:
I went to an extreme to make a point, which is exactly what K3 did, and exactly why I did the same damn thing.
The truth is, "standing someone up" is a subjective term. One person's "he stood me up" is another person's "close pass" and how each rider reacts has everything to do with the outcome.
I just can't stand the endless whining of so-called racers demanding that no one ever force them to alter their happy little race line or there'll be hell to pay.
And the reason folks from NESBA tend to point this out is because the kid gloves so many whiners seem to want are exactly what we expect at A TRACK DAY.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on May 10, 2007, 11:32:20 AM
Brilliant. You've obviously never seen a race, much less been involved in one, regardless of the fact you own and operate a motorcycle on a racetrack, and like to call yourself a racer.
IPut the crack pipe down, grow a set, and pull your head out. You've just described the same rules we enforce in the Beginner group at NESBA, where it sounds like you belong.
Is this THE Marshall Skloss of Roadracing World fame? Wow. Hey, I thought your articles were pretty well-written, although I didn't agree with everything you had to say.
Stop by the house some time, and I'll let you count my CCS championship trophies. Bring both hands.
What you just described is outbraking another rider. If he hasn't tipped in yet, how could you be standing him up? Standing someone up (sigh, do I HAVE to explain this again?) is flying into the apex and moving the other rider out of your way after he's already committed to the arc he's going to run through the corner. In other words, he had is knee on the deck, his radius set, and you STOOD HIM UP.
Please don't mimic me. It only degrades you as a writer. Your articles were fairly eloquent. Don't sell yourself short here. And why would YOU be jumping all over me about remarks I directed at Garth? He's the one who started in on me in a thread that initially had NOTHING to do with racing etiquette, and he's the one who can't stand firm on what he means from thread to thread. You weren't even IN this conversation before you placed yourself there.
Honestly, from what you wrote, it sounds like you and I are actually in agreement, but you're mad at me because maybe you're friends with Garth? I'm pretty sure that if you were at the apex with your knee on the pavement and someone pushed your knee out of the way with their front tire, thus STANDING YOU UP, you'd be mad as hell about it and think the other rider was unsportsmanlike.
BTW, having mostly retired from racing, I'm currently the Midwest Lead instructor for Sportbike Track Time, so you're not likely to see me at a NESBA event. I doubt they'd let me through the gate. I don't understand why, but they seem to view anyone from STT as the enemy.
Quote from: tstruyk on May 10, 2007, 12:44:13 PM
but throwing a bike into a corner so deep and so late that the rider has to check up completely to avoid contact is a bunch of shit at this level. If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer :blahblah:
Well said tstruyk. Well said.
Marshall is a great writer and produced some great reading material. He did have some typical "Nesba CR superiority complex" in some of his writing, but that is to be expected. Whether or not the "Stand em up if you have to" originiated from his mouth or someone else's is irrelevant. What's relevant is that he chose to include that quote in his article, hence pissng off a lot of club racers.
Standing someone up, in my eyes, is exactly how tstruyk described it in his previous post. And if that is what Marshall was implying in his article, please stay the hell away from my race tracks. :)
I don't know Marshall personally, but from his last post here, he's lost some creditibility in my eyes. And Garth just looks like he is sore that someone is saying negative things about his CR's. I feel like I am at a Little League competition
+1
Well said tstruyk
Well a safe and an unsafe pass is determined by it's out come and it's beginning intent.
Not that my opinion matters for shit, but what one person deems a safe pass, another person may see as utterly reckless and retarded. So it's completely up to the perception of the riders involved (and anyone watching).
I don't think anyone would ever condone purposely wrecking anyone (regardless of my passed rum and coke induced conversations). I don't think anyone would condone clipping someone's wheel, and I don't think anyone would condone "pushing" or "bullying" another rider out of his or her way. If they blatantly do, then they need dragged to the infield and shot in the gut.
Nothing wrong with out breaking someone, nothing wrong with making a pass at the apex. But every rider should be confident that they can hold their line through the turn and they should offer the passie ample room to complete their turn without being pushed off the track or get their front wheel clipped. By the same token, if someone is passing on the outside, the passie should hold a tight line so that the passer can stay on track at the exit.
It's both riders' responsibility to race safe. It doesn't always happen and there isn't always enough forethought put into a pass being made. But there should be. But even then, what happens next is entirely up to both rider's skill level and each rider's perception. Not everything is black and white. Swing by the trailer at BlackHawk. I'll serve up the beer and everyone can duke it out there. I think in the end, everyone is agreeing on the same thing and pushing the same point in a different way. But again, that's a matter of perception as well.
And I though women were drama queens!
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Oh Chris. I can't tell you how much I'd like to pull the gloves off and tell you exactly what I really think about you, your racing skills, and your many glorious championships ... but instead, I'll try sticking to the point.
First of all, I teed off on you because I'm sick of hearing your endless whining and holier than thou attitude, and somebody needed to call you out on it.
Yes, I used a ridiculous extreme to make a point. Sound familiar? I don't think anyone will disagree that getting punted at the apex is dirty pool. No shit. Similarly, no one will disagree that lining another rider up on the brakes is a perfectly legit pass, but "standing someone up" is a SUBJECTIVE TERM.
I've been "stood up" in a corner many times, and if I hadn't altered my line I would've been punted. Let me tell you a little story that I think sums it up quite nicely.
I was in practice at Gingerman last season, entering turn 2 (the long carousel right immediately after the left hand turn 1) I was moving along at a pretty good clip, I had already committed to the right hand corner, ,knee on the deck, when low and behold a bike appeared. There it was, like it or not, hot and heavy, inches away from me, and totally unexpected, forcing its way into my trajectory. What did I do? I spooked. To be honest, it kind of freaked me out. I didn't know there was another rider there, and I was kind of in my own world. It was just practice, after all!
Well, when I stood it up, as I had to do to avoid my line and his line coming together, I overreacted. If I had made a minor correction, and only stood it up a little, we would have proceeded side by side through the apex and fought for the line. Instead I stood it WAY up, caught one of Gingerman's notorious seams, and almost crashed. Not because another rider stuck his nose in my line, but because I didn't have the skills and presence of mind not to overreact.
Later I saw that rider in the pits. So did I hunt him down and make him pay for his reckless lack of responsibility? No. I walked over to him and said,
"Hey man, you know that was only practice, right? Kinda close in turn 2 there." He replied, "Yeah, sorry about that, I was on a hot lap and didn't think you were going to be carrying that much speed. You know how it is."
And yes, I do know how it is. Which is why I totally understood, held no grudge, and actually learned a little something in that corner that makes me better able to deal with RACING SITUATIONS that are TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR AT TRACK DAYS, but are part of what makes racing different from a track day.
No matter how long we argue about this it still comes down to trying to quantify a subjective issue. Without a case by case analysis, and instant replay, it's kind of pointless. The only reason I bothered to chime in on this waste of energy is because I've had no end to the amount of flack I've had to take for calling a spade a spade. And it seems to be guys like you leading the charge.
Quote from: funsizeracing on May 10, 2007, 02:25:51 PM
And I though women were drama queens!
Not only are the men the REAL drama queens, they'll go the other route and gossip worse than washer women. :ahhh:
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clicksmilies.com%2Fs1106%2Fernaehrung%2Ffood-smiley-007.gif&hash=c9cffca419028753bc6a2f766910b3f04a553531)
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on May 10, 2007, 01:41:48 PM
Stop by the house some time, and I'll let you count my CCS championship trophies. Bring both hands.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Quote from: tstruyk on May 10, 2007, 12:44:13 PM
. If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer :blahblah:
:ahhh:
OK, but remember no passing in the corners in the Beginner group.
Quote from: spyderchick on May 10, 2007, 03:17:39 PM
Not only are the men the REAL drama queens, they'll go the other route and gossip worse than washer women. :ahhh:
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clicksmilies.com%2Fs1106%2Fernaehrung%2Ffood-smiley-007.gif&hash=c9cffca419028753bc6a2f766910b3f04a553531)
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Marshall, I agree with you that we all seem to have a different interpretation of what being stood up means. My beef is that your article goes on record as stating that it is OK to do it. Now does every Tom Dick and Harry agree with you what think being stood up means? NO. They do however all have a green light to do it now. Elsewhere you have made the statement that you didn't realize what you were starting with this article but that you thought the dialog was healthy. Chris and Garth were engaging in said dialog when you pounced on Chris. BTW Garth has been quite vocal about bashing anyone who doesn't agree with him on this subject, myself included. He seems to have gone into hiding though, I'm still waiting to hear what he thinks of my post. (I think my first Nesba day is going to be very interesting) For the record, no matter what you might think, you can't be stood up in the braking zone. If you are straight up and down you can't get anymore so. You might have to stay on the brakes a little longer before turning in but that is a very acceptable pass. Furthermore there is a big difference between being spooked and being stood up. In your example at Gingerman you got spooked, no shame there, it's happened to all of us, whether we're honest enough to admit it or not. The situation here is that a lot of us are afraid that your article has put it out there that it is ok to stand someone up but no one can agree what is an acceptable definition. Look at my post a page or 2 back and tell me that you honestly think,
1) it is not a clear case of being stood up.
2) that it is an acceptable pass.
Quote from: G 97 on May 10, 2007, 03:40:51 PM
OK, but remember no passing in the corners in the Beginner group.
oh to one day be a (dare I) ADVANCED NESBA RIDER!!!!! :ahhh: Nah... I get spooked when people pass me... :rollseyes:
Nesba lost the opportunity to make a (not for) profit on me a few years ago... not that I'm missed, i guess I'll never know whats it like be in the club... :wah:
Quick one for Marshall... for my own curiosity... If the type of pass at G-man was acceptable, why did you search him out in the pits to question his motives for making a close pass in practice? its not a TD, IMO very similar rules of engagement apply during practice as would a race. If racing is a 10... practice is a 9.5 (again IMO). Would your response have been different if his reaction to your question was "maybe you should just do track days if that spooked you, your not ready to race"
Sounds like you took issue to a "questionable" pass, confronted him on it and where satisfied with his answer... what if you had fallen down? would you feel the same way? What if you broke your collar bone and been out for the weekend? Blame him? Blame yourself for not being prepared? Where would it have gone from there? What if he had overcooked the corner and hit you? Would that have been too much? In your opinion, where is the line drawn between hard racing, and irresponsability?
tim
Paul,
I went back and reread your description of when you were "stood up" (man I'm starting to hate that phrase!) in a previous race. To be honest, without seeing it I can't make an informed opinion of it. It sounds like an unacceptable pass, but again, I'd have to see it to make a judgement call. But here's where it gets a little sticky ...
When we watch racingon TV, as I imagine we all do, we see numerous examples of riders standing each other up, it's just that the rider getting stood up has a hightened sense of feel and skill that allows them to make minor adjustments to their line instead of the major adjustments that often lead to off track excursions, arguments over etiquette, etc...
The case I described at Gingerman definitely "stood me up" but my overreaction to the intercepting bike was the real problem, not the fact another rider was sticking his nose in my line.
Another very real issue here is that at the club level you've got at least two distinct groups of "racers" You've got the AMA licensed, hard nosed, highly skilled, hard core racers, who stand each other up all the time without issue (no blood no foul) and the "I've got to work on Monday, I'm just out here to have fun, No trophy is worth getting hurt" club racers who don't think a club race is the place to ride so aggressively.
Unfortunately, all these people are on the same track, at the same time. And due to the fact that club racing combines, classes, amateurs and experts, races, etc... all on all too narrow tracks with insufficient run off areas, it creates a difficult environment for everyone to do what they came for without creating friction.
I would never condone punting another rider, and I hope to never be punted off track for holding my line when a faster rider comes through, but I accept the fact that if I choose to race I am taking this risk.
Another factor in this discussion that has gone unmentioned is the fact that many club racers seem to think the best way to finish well is to run a ridiculously defensive line. Lines that make no sense other than to hopefully block faster riders from getting through before the checkered flag. At a small, twisty, narrow track, it's extremely difficult to get past these types of riders without a certain amount of risk. Where's the etiquette in that equation?
Again, without instant replay and some quantifiable factors, it's extremely difficult to establish any kind of basis for judgement. It's almost like debating a shade of color. It's largely in the eye of the beholder.
I suspect that if we had a hundred examples of close passes on tape, most everyone on this thread would agree on most all of the passes. Probably there would be some debate over a small percentage of them, and that debate would divide people into the two groups I listed above.
And for the record, you'll always be welcome at any NESBA event, as long as you follow the passing rules :-)
Tim,
You make a good point. And it's sparked a thought regarding what makes a pass acceptable or not in my mind. Before I try to articulate it, let me add that I did NOT cruise the pits to seek the rider out. I happen to be walking back from the bathroom and saw him on his pit bike so I thought I'd mention it. But you're right, as it was a race practive, and a totally acceptable pass in my opinion, I had no business questioning it in the first place. As a track day guy, it did spook me, and I felt compelled to mention it. I'm not sure why, other than it caught me off guard.
Would I have been pissed at him if I had crashed? No. He didn't crash me, he didn't hit me, and he didn't stand my bike up so much that I had no choice but to crash. Although I can guarantee you there are "racers" who would have blamed him for everything if they'd crashed in that same situation.
Now about the acceptable pass thought ... here's my opinion, for whatever it's worth.
I think we can all agree it's the passer's job to get around safely. Where it gets sticky is with what the pasees responsibility is.
I tend to think the guy in front has the right of way. If you use the front wheel axle as a reference point, whoever's axle is in front has right of way. If I stick my front wheel in and my axle is behind the rider I'm trying to pass, it's on me to get through safely, without contactin that other bike. Conversely, if I'm the bike in front, and someone sticks a wheel in, I have three options.
1. I can stand it up a little and let them through.
2. I can hold my line and see what happens, either they'll hit me and be in the wrong, or they'll back out for fear of contact.
3. I can tighten my line and effectively shut the door on them.
This scenario assumes a certain amount of control on both riders parts. If the passing rider is in way too hot (Pedrosa style) then it's an open and shut case, as it sounds like in Paul's earlier example.
Again, it's so subjective, and hard to establish at what point someone has the line when both bikes are effectively side by side at the entry/apex.
I can remember one time last season at Blackhawk T6a, when Curt and I were going at it hard style. Everytime I took a sniff with my front wheel he slammed the door on me, forcing me to back out or get hit. On the last lap I decided to be a bit more bold and stick it in there. Well, it wasn't bold enough and I wasn't quite close enough to establish my bike's position alongside him before he slammed the door on me again at the apex. We had hard contact, breaking my front fairing loose and very nearly crashing me out.
After the race, he said with a smile,"What the hell was that in T6?" I said, "I tried to stick it in there but you just slammed the door on me." He laughed and said, "If you want it you're going to have come get it. I'm not going to just give it to you."
In that case, I wasn't close enough to force my bike alongside him and be axle to axle at the apex. If I had, he most likely would've stood it up just enough to get through the corner, and then tried the same move on me into Turn 7.
Hard racing for sure, and two amateur trying to learn how to make a close pass on the final lap of what was for us a pretty important race.
In retrospect, I was clearly in the wrong as I didn't get the bike where it needed to be to establish my line over his. He maintained position and there was contact due to the fact I put my nose where it couldn't stay.
Anyway, my point is that if I were going to say what's acceptable and what's not, that one was not .... because I didn't get inside fast enough to force him to yield. He held the line, I got my nose chopped off, and I was lucky not to be hurt or crash us both. Was I out of control? No. Was I wrong to stick my nose in there? I don't think so, but I wasn't planning on there being any contact. Was he wrong to chop my nose off? Absolutely not, we were racing.
So not that it really matters, but to me the bike in front always has right of way. If the passer can stick his center alongside the bike he's trying to pass, then it's on the bike being passed to either stand up and let him through, or close the door and let him suffer the consequences.
I appreciate your time and detailed response.
I think you'll find that the "other" racers (not the AMA liscensed hard nosed etc) are the majority on the grid. Maybe not at all tracks and maybe not in every series... but we are the ones filling the grids so the contingency money is there for the uber fast guys.
Yes there are a handful of AMA hopefuls in any round of MW/GP or other series.
when your thoughts are expressed in a magazine people will take what they will from it. It came off odd to some (self included) and some of the comments/responses from your "camp" (condoned by you or not) didnt help your cause and more than likely generated more "flak" than necessary.
"Where did you find this horse alive?" -Jeff Kufalk
This is not a knock on anyone's ability or chosen class, but racing mid-pack in amateur lightweight is barely even the same sport as running with the lead pack of an expert middleweight field.
It's actually one of the nice things about club racing, you have a choice. You can run in the middle of the pack, enjoy the competition and comraderie, and do it safely. Or, you can light your hair on fire and bang bars with Hall and Feuer at the front of the MW/HW/UL classes.
I was blown away in my first expert races by how aggresive the passing is. If you want to get through, you'd better do it with authority. Those guys will not hesitate to slam the door on you, stand you up, or turn across your front wheel.
It's the way it is. You will not "politely" win expert unlimited GP. Unless you're stupid fast and you start on the front row and get away, you will most likely need to force your will at some point.
Thank you, Jason! Maybe you should be the one doing the writing, as your reply is as concise, accurate, and honest an assessment of the situation as I have ever seen.
Marshall, I mostly agree with your last posts. I especially like to see you expressing the leading rider has the line philosophy. I don't mind adjusting my line by a few feet or a light tap on the brakes but full on braking leaned over or adjustments of more than a few feet mean that the passing rider is out of control and would have surely caused a collision which should be unacceptable. I can out brake ANYONE if I don't mind chopping off their line and waiting waiting waiting to turn, effective, but not an acceptable way to pass in my book and this is what I think of when that unmentionable phrase is uttered.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on May 10, 2007, 02:48:39 PM
Oh Chris. I can't tell you how much I'd like to pull the gloves off and tell you exactly what I really think about you, your racing skills, and your many glorious championships ... but instead, I'll try sticking to the point.
First of all, I teed off on you because I'm sick of hearing your endless whining and holier than thou attitude, and somebody needed to call you out on it.
All righty then.
You obviously don't proofread your own copy, do you? We're the same guy, you just have one hell of a lot more money and a bigger ego. Probably more talent too. I never really was a fast guy, but I hung tough. If you were planning to shame me about that, save yourself the trouble. I don't really have any shame.
Seems you've backpedaled right to the spot I started from. In a thread that was never supposed to be about this subject in the first place. At least you had the chance to call me out on it before you used different words to draw the same line in the sand that I'd already drawn.
How would you summarise that? "K3. you're a bitch, you don't know anything, and you have no skill talent, or courage. Oh, but you're right. I just couldn't possibly back down my ego enough to admit it."
That's classic. I've gotta hand it to ya.
I was refered to this thread from another forum, read it four hours ago, and am still really irritated by it.
I'm a trackday regular, and have never raced - reasons for this will be clear as I air my views and opinions. I'm sure I will catch a lot of flack for not being a 'proper racer' from those that view themselves as such - so be it - however my relative inexperience allows me an unbiased opinion.
I have been competing in this and that since I was eight. I paid my way through college on a sports scholarship. In a past life, I raced cars... etc. etc. etc. I have to say that given my limited exposure to the culture, even I can tell the 'proper racers' in this thread from the posers who like to assimilate to the 'racer' lifestyle.
Competition is, somewhat by definition, the persuit of victory by all (legal) means at your disposal. I would argue that hard, fast, stuff passing is not only acceptable, it's your duty to yourself as a competitor.
Certianly there are limits, but that's not for the competitors to define. It's for the sanctioning body. The sanctioning body sets the rules, the competitor pushes them. That's the way it works.
Sportsmanship. It's an intangible. Left to people other than the competitors to define.
Does a boxer pull punches in the name of sportsmanship? Is a pitcher unsportsmanly because he throws a fastball that's too difficult to hit?
No. That's competition.
Somebody brought up the 1989 Formula One spat between Prost and Senna as the 'turning point' in motorsport. Horseshit (it wasn't the first turn, BTW, it was the chicane at Suzuka)! That was competition, and it was great!! Senna did everything in his power to win the championship. So did Schumy in '94 and Villeneuve in '97.
Some here seem to beleive competitors ought to be garunteed thier own safety be at the forefront of other competitors in the name of sportsmanship. I see that as a Trackday Mentality. Competition brings out both the best and the worst in people. Humans, when pushed to the limit, can be cruel.
If you're so concerned with being 'stood up' or 'stuff passed' - why don't you go faster? Expecting to be given the grace of an unintrusive pass? Trackday mentality.
I'm sure by now, even the steeliest of you will consider me cold. I've gone to the extremes here (nothing that hasn't been done in this thread already) to illustrate my point. Hopefully by doing so, it has come accross.
Some will argue that since this is a club sport, that this 'competitor' additude shouldn't prevail. Fact is that some racers ARE out for the big money and fabulous prizes (or, bowling trophies) and have the competition additude, others don't - are much more, well, sportsmanly. As long as this disparity exists, neither faction will be entirely happy with each other.
Skip Barber arrange thier races into 'Championship' and 'Sportsman' classes. 'Championship' pays money, is more serious, and emphasises 'competition'. The 'Sportsman' series, as the name suggests, emphasises safety, has stricter rules and enforcement.
Seems that the idea of 'Novice' and 'Expert' is somewhat out the window anyhow. With Marshall and Curt passing all but 3 'Experts' in some races last year, and 'Experts' pissing and moaning about 'unsportsmanlike' conduct... Why not consider an alternate arrangement?
Why haven't I raced? Not because I'm not fast enough to compete, I'd place myself somewhere mid-pack in MWSS, repeating mid 1:17s at BHF (based on my trackday performances). I don't wish to compete. I don't wish to be stood up. I don't want to be a moving chicane, and I wish to have my in the forefront of my track-mates minds.
Would I start racing if there were a 'Sportsman' class that garunteed some common denominator of track etiquete? Absolutely!!
Is it fair to ask the 'big dogs' to repress thier competative spirit based on my definition of what's 'fair' or what's 'sporting' or what I want? Absolutely not!
Quote from: JBraun on May 10, 2007, 05:54:51 PM
I was blown away in my first expert races by how aggresive the passing is. If you want to get through, you'd better do it with authority. Those guys will not hesitate to slam the door on you, stand you up, or turn across your front wheel.
It's the way it is. You will not "politely" win expert unlimited GP. Unless you're stupid fast and you start on the front row and get away, you will most likely need to force your will at some point.
couldnt agree with you more... by some of these definitions i got stood up by a pack of 3 guys at once @ hpt!
To which line in the sand are you referring, Chris? Is it this one?
"If you crash someone to pass them, what are you costing that person? Maybe his bike is destroyed and he can't race. Maybe he's hurt and can't work or pay his bills. That's racing? THAT'S BULLSHIT!
PLAIN AND SIMPLE, BARGING YOUR WAY PAST SHOULD GET YOU SUSPENDED."
Wow. Way to go out on a limb there. Once again, this is yet another "No shit" statement, but when you get down to the knitty gritty, your line in the sand seems to wash away.
I have to admit, I blame myself for getting drawn into these pissing matches with guys like you because you can't win. Hell, we're arguing something I'm not convinced you even understand, much less are qualified to debate.
I did my best to articulate what I think constitutes an acceptable pass, and I'll readily admit it's still nothing more than my opinion. But don't tell me I'm backpedaling to your position, whatever that is, because as far as I can tell it's little more than pompous rhetoric.
And no, I don't proofread my own "copy" when I'm posting. What I say on these forums is straight from the heart, which is probably why it draws so much fire from people like you.
Morph, did I read right? You approve of the Prost, Senna crash?
I guess Morph is supposed to be the voice of reason amongst all of us. ::)
You said it Morph, you've never raced :biggrin:
Quote from: Sklossmonster on May 10, 2007, 10:20:02 PM
I have to admit, I blame myself for getting drawn into these pissing matches with guys like you because you can't win.
Now THERE'S something I agree with you about. There won't be any winners in this dialog. Considering that, it seems pointless to continue. Good luck at Blackhawk this weekend.
I don't think I have ever watched one thread so closely. Seeing two very good writers and riders duke it out verbally off the sleeve is just cool as hell.
Besides, it gives me something to do while I sit in my office besides work. I must say, it keeps the day refreshing.
Well, Chris, we can agree on that. Thanks for the thought about Blackhawk, but due to the financial suicide I committed last season I won't be doing much racing this year. And for what it's worth, I went back and read your article on why people race, and I thought it was actually quite good.
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2007, 10:28:00 PM
Morph, did I read right? You approve of the Prost, Senna crash?
From a sportsmanship standpoint, no.
From a competition standpoint, absolutely. I was a Senna fan at the time, so I stood up and cheered. Truth be told, if I were in that situation, I probably would have done exactly what Senna did.
Is this thread about Why we race ' or why we get stood up. I was dating this girl once, oh never mind not on my birthday very painfull. I got ran into going down the chute at Summit on Sat and I was a little pissed about it but I am trying to get back in the swing of things after 7 year layoff.
Quote from: DavidV on May 10, 2007, 11:38:08 PM
I guess Morph is supposed to be the voice of reason amongst all of us. ::)
Someone ought to be.
Quote from: DavidV on May 10, 2007, 11:38:08 PM
You said it Morph, you've never raced :biggrin:
Never raced motorbikes. I raced karts for 3 years and sportscars for 4.
Unbiased, opinion.
This is honestly the first form of motorsport (or competition, really) that I've witnessed such a sense of entitlement on the part of back markers for 'thier line'. When did people start expecting manners during a race?It's a RACE. People are going to do whatever they can to WIN. Mannerly or not. As long as they aren't blatently torpeedoing or brake checking people, all's fair.
Wreckless riders will be punished with sanctions, crashes, or DNFs. Wreckless doesn't win anyhow, so it's a bit of a self policing process. Ask Paul Tracy.
Quote from: Morph on May 10, 2007, 09:35:16 PM
Sportsmanship. It's an intangible. Left to people other than the competitors to define.
Does a boxer pull punches in the name of sportsmanship? Is a pitcher unsportsmanly because he throws a fastball that's too difficult to hit?
No. That's competition.
I think the primary difference of sportsmanship and unsportsman in the comparison of the two cases of boxing and racing would be an expectation of being punched in the nose as the rules imply will happen and then being kicked in the nuts.
There's no question in the competition but rather in the limits a person may push in respect to "right/wrong" and "safe/life threatening". But to hit the track as you explain "it is" would lead to blood, and carnage, and broken stuff, and all kinds of other undesirable shit that only a truly psychologically dysfunction freak would find enjoyment in.
... unless I misunderstood your point.
We need to realize this is the most dangers form of motorsport there is a constent flow of safety enhancements for the likes of Paul Tracy and Dale Jr I'm not saying all motorsports totally safe but when someone is injured or dies there is an investigation and maybe some changes ,soft walls, Hans device etc. and what happens with us except air fence which unfortunately has only limited use.The last thing we got was a back brace. I remember my boss touting it back in 1982 . oh yeah they may move a wall 10 feet after persistant complaints and few chopper rides. so we are left with only ourselves.we are racing for a cup .I ride as hard as I can and I do win but I'm not going to crash someone to win I know everybody I race with after 2 years running every event I know almost everybody there they are my friends I could not imagine killing one of the for a cup. you all need to grow up ! if your that bad ass go ride with barney or Jeff May I'll see on TV
+1 Ducmarc
I've really been thinking about this thread almost non-stop. I don't just post to cause controversy. I really write what I feel, and generally don't cause a fuss unless I believe that I'm trying to stand up for what I believe about the sport that I love more than anything else I've ever done.
That said, maybe I've been wrong.
I'm just a few weeks short of 44 years old. My Dad was racing when I was born, and I've never not spent a summer at the track. Between when he stopped racing and when I started, I spent about 15 years cornerworking for both cars and bikes. When I started, club racing was a lot less aggressive than it is now. It was more gentlemanly. The guys who mentored me were mostly older, well established, and very much known for their sportsmanship. Chief among them was Ed Key. Although it wasn't my plan to do so, my novel Highside ended up doing a fair job of documenting that era, those people, and my feelings on what racing is about.
The world has changed pretty drastically since I was born. People fly airplanes into skyscrapers or strap dynamite to themselves to make their point. Drive-by shooters kill half the neighborhood without a thought. Football players cream the QB after the whistle, willing to take the penalty and maybe finish the QB's career in hopes of eliminating him. People drive like they're out of their minds, sawing each other off like it's war instead of commuting. There is no longer any stigma to a girl becoming a stripper. The morals and behavior that were the examples of my youth are old fashioned now. People play by a different set of rules.
As much as the moral ethic of the population has changed in that period of time, it's no surprise that the same ethos has found its way to racing. If the perception of what is and is not acceptably aggressive has mirrored the embracing of violence seen in every other aspect of culture in the last two decades, then maybe it's unrealistic for me to expect racers to race each other like gentlemen. Maybe that era is long gone, and I need to accept the fact. When racers raced each other cleanly, the fast guys still won and the slow guys still lost. But if the perception of what is fair play and what is dirty pool shifts, I guess the fast racers must either adapt or be left behind.
So maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I mourn for what's been lost.
K3 your beating yourself and us up I will be fortyfour in Sept so we are the same age I grew up in the most dangerous city in the south Miami you know go back there know and it's not near as bad as it was Half the murder rate as in 1982 my dad raced hydroplanes and we cornerworked at Palm beach for scca. I as a teen Iworked for John Long as mechanic Alot of people don't like him but he was and he still is my friend and mentor He raced all over the planet.[his son Barrett races formula extreme 7th at fontana] When John talks about the old days they were bitter tough they fought on the track and in the pits it was nothing to run someone in the dirt especially if money is involved they would kick and elbow anybody in the way they rode the most dangerous tracks just ask Henry degow. what I'm trying to say is yes we have a few rough riders but they get weeded out the rest of us love to race each other the same people every race every weekend. there my friends I'm there friend where all here together if it isn't like where you ride then come down and ride with us.Like Paul Harvey said there was no good old days marc
All is not lost!
There are still plenty of racers out there who are competitive and show great sportsmanship. Maybe it's the region (GP) but every time I go racing, the people are great. There may be one to two out there willing to "win at all cost" but certainly not the majority! I'm young and inexpirienced but the racing you described as past times is still alive today, at least in the Great Plains region.
Just my two.
as you knock down Probst to make the pass... :biggrin: :ahhh:
You're next on my list!
:ahhh: :ahhh:
Quote from: Morph on May 11, 2007, 11:56:45 AM
From a sportsmanship standpoint, no.
From a competition standpoint, absolutely. I was a Senna fan at the time, so I stood up and cheered. Truth be told, if I were in that situation, I probably would have done exactly what Senna did.
There's a difference between competition and sportsmanship?
Quote from: Morph on May 11, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
Someone ought to be.Never raced motorbikes. I raced karts for 3 years and sportscars for 4.
Unbiased, opinion.
This is honestly the first form of motorsport (or competition, really) that I've witnessed such a sense of entitlement on the part of back markers for 'thier line'. When did people start expecting manners during a race?It's a RACE. People are going to do whatever they can to WIN. Mannerly or not. As long as they aren't blatently torpeedoing or brake checking people, all's fair.
Wreckless riders will be punished with sanctions, crashes, or DNFs. Wreckless doesn't win anyhow, so it's a bit of a self policing process. Ask Paul Tracy.
Is there a sense of entitlement in club level motorcycle racing? Yes, certainly. Might be a whole other thread though.
Wreckless riders punished? Again, that might be a whole new thread. There would have to be some debate that there potentially are not enough sanctions against wreckless riders. They do exist, and they are certainly overlooked for some reason.
While I have never raced carts or sportscars, I have been around carts, sportscars, oval track cars and the like. Why is it that all those guys seemed to think that motorcycle road racers are crazy? Because our exposure is quite a bit different that being in a cage. Yeah, a cart is different, but if you spin out a cart, you're still less likely to hit the ground than when you crash a motorcycle at speed.
Last time I checked, every time I crashed a motorcycle, I hit the ground. No sarcasm there, it's just the way it really is.
So, while one can say that wreckless doesn't win, it can scare others around you to get out of your way.
I have heard of good, experienced motorcycle racers going to car racing, and then their four wheel counterparts complain about the agressiveness of those racers. Well, I suppose it's back to some what of an entitlement ideology. Perspectives are important.
Quote from: Morph on May 11, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
Someone ought to be.Never raced motorbikes. I raced karts for 3 years and sportscars for 4.
Unbiased, opinion.
This is honestly the first form of motorsport (or competition, really) that I've witnessed such a sense of entitlement on the part of back markers for 'thier line'. When did people start expecting manners during a race?It's a RACE. People are going to do whatever they can to WIN. Mannerly or not. As long as they aren't blatently torpeedoing or brake checking people, all's fair.
Wreckless riders will be punished with sanctions, crashes, or DNFs. Wreckless doesn't win anyhow, so it's a bit of a self policing process. Ask Paul Tracy.
When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.
With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.
In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.
I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.
When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.
At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.
So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.
Quote from: spyderchick on May 12, 2007, 07:04:17 AM
When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.
With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.
In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.
I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.
When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.
At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.
So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.
"Can I get an Amen?" -Snack
Wow...
Quote from: spyderchick on May 12, 2007, 07:04:17 AM
When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.
With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.
In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.
I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.
When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.
At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.
So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.
Marry me. :)
your right i still say give the corner worker a little authority if they see a inexcusable act let them call for a meatball if the same guy keeps getting called in then the promoter can make the decision .its in his best interest. better for one to go home pissed than lose a customer for a season or for life.maybe once we all know there is a penalty for rough riding we might start riding with our minds instead of our twig and berries
I agree that it would be good if the corner workers were able to make calls like that and actually be listened to. And to back it up, keep records of the calls. After a while, the guys with a problem would become obvious.
After my experience yesterday @ BFR, working the other side of the equation as a corner worker, I can tell you that I love racing and The Midwest Safety Crew even more! :kissy:
Every Expert and Amateur should have to work a corner at least two days in one season to get a better understanding of what the big picture is. Is your bike not ready to race yet or cash funds running low? Make your Mom proud and work a corner!
Wouldn't this be a great time for a piece of rhubarb pie? ( The rhubarb's even ready for pickin')
Totally agreed. The Midwest Safety Crew is one of the tightest, best organised, and loyal worker groups in the world. They're also huge fun to party with. When you race out of region, suddenly things change. You find yourself saying, "Hey, shouldn't there be a flag up for that?" Only then do you realise how good those guys are.
+1 !!!
Quote from: spyderchick on May 12, 2007, 07:04:17 AM
When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.
With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.
In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.
I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.
When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.
At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.
So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.
Whoooo Hoooooo!!! Right on sista
Quote from: EX_#76 on May 14, 2007, 10:07:07 AM
Whoooo Hoooooo!!! Right on sista
I've gotta stop preachin' to the choir. :preachon: Can I get a 'Hallelujah'? :biggrin:
Quote from: spyderchick on May 14, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
I've gotta stop preachin' to the choir. :preachon: Can I get a 'Hallelujah'? :biggrin:
Hallelujah! -Snack
I'm trying to remember whether I can remember a time when I saw Rossi "stand someone up" in a race. This season he certainly has had plenty of opportunity to do it, given how much time he has spent out of the lead in the races. It's not that he hasn't made any passes. And it's not that he hasn't blown a couple tries (remember last weekend - ended up overcooking it and went off the track).
that maybe at that level no one would stand up they might crash out instead I'm trying to think of a time when i saw anybody stand up in moto gp
Quote from: spyderchick on May 14, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
I've gotta stop preachin' to the choir. :preachon: Can I get a 'Hallelujah'? :biggrin:
I think you got several!
Quote from: tshort on May 14, 2007, 07:04:30 PM
I'm trying to remember whether I can remember a time when I saw Rossi "stand someone up" in a race. This season he certainly has had plenty of opportunity to do it, given how much time he has spent out of the lead in the races. It's not that he hasn't made any passes. And it's not that he hasn't blown a couple tries (remember last weekend - ended up overcooking it and went off the track).
2005 Jerez 8)
I think the skill level plays a big part. Many times when some club guys may have been "stood up" I think the AMA and Motogp guys would not have had to even change their line much or they would have changed their line without a hickup.